[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome back to the Collective Table, everyone. This is Janelle, and I am here with my lovely co host, Claire.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Hi, everyone.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is our season finale, the final episode of season 10, the 50.5%.
And today we don't have a guest. It's. It's just Claire and I, and we're here in the studio with you all.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, we have a variety show of sorts. For our season finale in three parts, we're gonna chat a little bit about this season.
We're gonna read some comments, emails. We might even play some voicemails from our listeners. And then we have one final special treatment, a look into another podcast called all the Buried Women, which has given Janelle and I a lot to chew on in this season of our own podcast, the Collective Table, and just the season of life in general. So, Janelle, how are you feeling about season 10?
[00:01:11] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's been a bit of a pilgrimage for us.
It's. I know for me, brought up a lot of joy, some anger, some healing, and maybe even more questions than answers. I'm definitely going to be chewing on things a lot from this season. It really stretched me, but I'm grateful for it.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Same. I keep thinking about how we began this season with such a simple premise to center the voices and sacred stories of women. But what has unfolded has been anything but simple because we have just sat with such depth. Or you could say, so much buried wisdom.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Good. Little pun.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: That little pun.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: I agree.
When we went into this season, we spent a lot of time kind of planning and whiteboarding what we were going to focus on. And when we came up with the 50.5%, we wanted to just simply highlight something that we felt was often overlooked. This idea that we women's voices and the divine feminine have always been part of the church. This isn't a new idea. It's deeply rooted in our Christian tradition.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Definitely. And I feel like that seems to be such a common misconception that it's not a deeply rooted part of our tradition.
And maybe that's just because it's been kind of lost or buried for so long and think. It really hit me in Dr. Gaffney's episode this season.
She talked about how much there was buried and things that were purposefully hidden in scripture or historical records about women.
And then I think of our episode with Deneen, who used Dr. Gaffney's translation to write a whole children's book that really uncovers this idea of thinking about God and the divine feminine. And that actually reshaped how I pray.
I feel like it gave me language that feels nurturing and expansive. It helped me to unlearn limits that I didn't even realize I was placing around God or limits that I had been taught that I needed to place on God, and just opened up a vision of God that just feels more whole, more present, and just more relatable to my own experience, which with myself and with God.
And so it's really just drawn me deeper into my own faith.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: I think that's what really we want this podcast to be about. So the fact that it did that for you. I know when we talked to Deneen, she said that it really opened things up for her. I think that's really the whole point, is that we would move closer to the divine.
I'd say personally that Reverend Terry Horde Owens really gave me a lot to think about this season.
Kind of around the expectations we just really place on leadership. What struck me most was just her strength to refuse to squeeze herself into the mold of traditional leadership. Kind of that shape that she was given ahead of time to fit into, that was shaped by white men, and she just is not a white man. So she didn't go along with it. Instead, she stood firm in her identity, in her unique gifts and perspectives that she actually brings. As a black woman, I felt that kind of courage, her clarity, it really challenged me. It made me reflect deeply on how she shows up for her own ministry and how maybe I can feel like I can lead with more authenticity, more integrity, and not feel like I have to fit into old expectations that don't serve me. And really, if. If I'm not being myself, it doesn't serve my community either.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for naming that so clearly, because I. I felt that, too, with a lot of our guests. And so I'm. I'm just really grateful for our guests this season who have really pushed us in gentle and in just really powerful ways to examine not just how we lead, but why we lead the way we do as women.
And then just thinking about our last episode, you and I got pretty personal.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. You and I shared some of our own experiences as clergy, women, what it's like to lead in spaces where maybe our voice is sometimes celebrated and then other times not exactly welcome.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah, not. Not always welcome. But you know what really struck me? Listening back to our conversation with Reverend Carol Rawlings and even Terry Horde Owens, it's the hardships that they describe are not just unique to women in ministry like that's their context. And I think you and I related so much because that's our context and experience too. But what they're both talking about, what we talking about, by and large, extends far beyond the church.
These kind of challenges show up anytime someone from a marginalized group tries to exist or lead in spaces that are just not designed with them in mind.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Well, and I think to your point, we had a listener who listened to that last episode that we did. And, um, she wrote to us about her own experience.
So if you don't mind, I'd like to read to you a bit of what our dear listener Lucy wrote. We got her permission here to share this.
So she says this. She said, I so appreciate hearing what your journey has been like.
It all resonates so deeply with me. Having been an orchestra bassist for 30 years, I had no role models or mentors to turn to for guidance or support.
Bass sections were predominantly male, so I frequently felt like a fish swimming upstream.
In several orchestras, I was principal bassist Good Lucy, which made the job a whole other level of challenging.
Today, that has changed for the better.
I guess my takeaway is, yeah, it was difficult, but it was also some of the most rewarding work I've ever done. The concerts, musicians, conductors, and sheer beauty that I helped produce is embedded in my soul forever.
We just get up each day and do what needs to be done. And thank God for giving me the talent he did and. And the fortitude to bring it to life.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Ah, thank you for sharing that. I really love that.
I really appreciated the way that she pointed towards hope and resilience, like, where she's finding beauty and fulfillment despite all the challenges.
But what I really heard, like, I think she's getting to something even deeper here, too.
When she says, we just get up each day and do what needs to be done.
And when I hear that, I. I just hear in her comment, like, all of the things, all the things that women carry, right? We wake up, we show up, we do our jobs, we care for our people, we move through our lives. And you've said this to me before, Janelle, like, often with what feels like a boulder in front of us in the middle of the road, and we're somehow, we're expected to keep going, you know, either by working around it or slowly chipping away at it or away at it while still keeping everything else together and thinking about, like, what that boulder consists of. It's like these many roles that women are often asked to fill, sometimes all at once. Like, I think about all the moms who are, like, working full time and they're, like, breastfeeding in the middle of the night. They're remembering, like, every tiny detail to keep their homes running. And they're still showing up to. To meetings and school pickups and just life.
And even with all of that, we hold all this joy and exhaustion and the love and the pressure all at once. And not to, like, totally throw us off topic, but I just. When I heard her comment, I couldn't help but think of this scene from the most recent adaptation of Little Women, the movie adaptation, where Jo's character, she just, like, lets out this huge breath and just says, women.
She says they have minds and souls and hearts and ambition and talent and beauty.
So sick of people saying that, like, this is all a woman is meant for.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: Women, they.
They have minds and they have souls as well as just hearts. And they've got ambition and they've got talent as well as just beauty. And I'm so sick of people saying that love is just all a woman is fit for.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: I'm so sick of it. And I love that line. And there are so many different, like, interpretations of that line, but I think for me, it names this truth of, like, all that women hold, that women are holding so much. We've always been doing more than what we're told we're capable of. We're already living that fullness, whether or not the people around us are acknowledging it.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Well, Claire, I think that is such a important concept, and it's one that is, I think, getting some attention. There is a beautiful book, and we can link it in our show notes, called Women Holding Things. And it is a visual project by the American author and illustrator Maria Kallman.
And so just this is something that I think we are starting to see that what we might have considered as soft skills are actually the things that keep it all together, that really have importance in what we do. And not that men don't do it or that women have to do it, but somebody needs to do it.
And I think the getting up in the morning with all the things that Lucy shared is a beautiful representation of that.
And I think also echoes Reverend Carol who. Who spoke in our last episode about the joy of ministry despite all the pushback.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Reverend Carol was one of those people, one of those women who was waking up every day and doing what she needed to do.
Yeah. And that. That gave me a lot of hope to hear that from her. And it put things in perspective for me and reminded me to keep finding the joy as I keep waking up every day and doing the thing.
But oh my goodness. Janelle, Speaking of hope and joy and listener responses, I have to play this voicemail for you that one of our listeners, David, sent in. He is a dad and a youth pastor from Omaha, Nebraska, and he was responding to our Dear Mama God episode and it just made my heart sing. So let's listen to his voicemail.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Hello.
[00:12:48] Speaker D: I am a theologian light myself. I'm a youth minister out here and I've got three daughters, nine, seven and four. And we don't belong to a very open minded or liberal leaning church. And I try and make space for it as much as I can and try and be as much of a disruptor as I can without losing my job.
So something like Dear Mama God I think could be, I mean, one just beneficial for our family and helping my own children recognize their image in a God like figure, but also bridging that gap to a congregation of my own that would not go for something like this by themselves. So I'm happy to be here.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Oh man, this is good.
I think having daughters changed me as well.
Sometimes it feels like we're just over here at the Oceanside sanctuary preaching to the choir in our own little echo chamber. So to hear a listener from Nebraska in an entirely different context talk about how Deneen's words and ideas are forming both him and and his daughters. I mean, so exciting.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So special. And by the way, thank you to David for calling in and giving us permission to share your response.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you, David.
Okay, so there's one more comment that I'm going to read from one of our listeners, Noreen.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: Noreen. Hello, Noreen.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: She commented on several of our episodes, so thank you, Noreen. We need that feedback.
But I like this one from our Terry Horde Owens conversation.
She said this.
I value this opportunity in seeing women in more leadership roles. And then she says, and for the outfits, as a girl and as a woman, you were chastised for wearing pants, shorts and ridiculed for having short hair.
When you feel the freedom to just be a child of God without the man's thumb, it opens you up to being more fruitful and giving of yourself to being part of something bigger than a homemaker and a caregiver.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
Clothing ended up being a bigger topic of discussion than I expected this season.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: I mean, I like clothing as a topic, but I want to know what you think of that.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah, Noreen says something about this idea of the man's thumb.
So I think what she's speaking to there is. It's all going back to this idea of control.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
Noreen's comment, I think, really went well with Reverend Horde Owens comment that she touched on in the episodes where we had her, where she talked about even as a clergy person, that she doesn't always like to wear traditional clergy garments.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Like she, she choose. She has that choice there. I think Nerene and Reverend Horde Owens are pointing out that there's freedom in those choice choices. Whether you're choosing, you know, like pants, shorts, short hair, or if you're, you know, she talks about the role of homemaker and caregiver, you can choose that, too. Those are all great choice choices.
Reverend Horde Owens, you know, she can wear like, her business suit or clergy robes, and she is choosing her business suit. Both of those are great. But she has the choice, and there's something about the freedom of that. And on top of that, to be able to freely live into that choice without being chastised or judged or even discriminated against.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Well, and I think for listeners who are maybe of a younger age, it might be like what Noreen's talking about, how girls can't wear shorts.
But. But really this has just been something progressively that has happened. And whether or not it's now that you have to wear your hair a certain length in order to be considered beautiful, it's these beauty standards that we also have to really come under while we're trying to be professional people who are authentic. So really, I think good conversations around freedom and presentation of ourselves kind of through our calling, through our roles.
So good stuff.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah, good stuff. Yeah.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: Well, thank you listeners, for sharing your thoughts. We hope to continue to hear from all of you. So keep those emails, voicemails, and comments coming. We love hearing your voices and perspectives in this space. This is how we form community around podcasts.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: All right, Janelle. We told our listeners we would share some thoughts on all the Buried Women.
And here we are.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Here we are.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: So for our listeners, if you have not heard it yet, all the Buried Women is a powerful miniseries of a podcast by hosts Savannah Locke and Beth Allison Barr. And this podcast really focuses on uncovering the hidden stories of women in the Southern Baptist Convention's archives. And Janelle and I ended up listening to this as we have been working on season 10. And there was just so much resonance, we couldn't not talk about it.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: I love the resonance. And like we've shared before, both Claire and I grew up in Southern Baptist churches.
So this podcast, all the Buried Women really hit close to home for both of us as women shaped by that world and now reflecting on what it has meant to find our voices within and beyond all of that.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know what, Janelle? I almost didn't listen to all the.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Buried women trigger warning.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Yeah. These days, you know, I don't always pay attention to that world all that much because, as you said, it feels informed me so deeply and was such a big part of my Life for like 20 years.
But for a while, it was honestly healthy for my heart and my sanity to just disengage. You know, people talk about not dwelling in the past to live forward instead of backward. So I'm not really sure what possessed me to hit play, but I'm. I'm really glad that I did.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you texted me, I think, like, in the morning, like, right away.
[00:19:43] Speaker E: And.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: And we're like, you have to listen to this. And I was a little like, like, we're already so in it with. With the season. Do I want to do this?
[00:19:52] Speaker B: But we did not more to listen to. Oh, my gosh.
Yeah. We both kind of flew through these episodes, and it became one of those things that we couldn't stop talking about it. We were, like, sending each other quotes and reacting to the different stories. I think it was because we were just processing so much of our own stuff. And in light of what we heard, I also got my mom and my grandma listening to it, and they were also texting me and calling me about it, and we had this whole text thread about it.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: I'm a little jealous of that.
I have, like, one super close friend that I talked to about this stuff, and she was definitely like, oh, I'm not listening.
And you. So luckily I had you to process it because it was a lot to process.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: It was, I think, for me, just hearing about the context that I grew up in, you know, told not as an opinion or just a bunch of anecdotes of people that I knew, but told as, like, a formal history.
It was such a weird mix of validation and some grief, you know, like, it got me in this place of thinking, like, oh, I wasn't imagining things. Like, this is how it actually was. And he hearing it named, finally, it put so much into perspective.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: So I'm interested and I just guess I want you to say more.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, before I say more, I actually want to play a clip from all the Buried Women. They've given us permission to share some clips from their episodes. So I'm going to play a clip that really Hit me hard and I'll or. And it will help me explain where I am coming from.
So in this clip, you're going to hear from one of their hosts, Savannah, reacting to a speech that a prominent SBC leader made about women's ordination.
So she's pointing out that this leader does not just frame the topic of women's ordination as, like, a theological disagreement, but he's framing it just as a test of biblical fidelity. Like, do you believe in the Scriptures? So let's hear that quote.
[00:21:57] Speaker E: Notice how Mohler claimed the issue of women's ordination was an issue of biblical commitment and authority. Like, if you disagree about this issue, you're disagreeing with the Bible or you're disagreeing with God. Notice how he said the unity and harmony of the Southern Baptist Convention was at stake.
A good question to ask when bold claims like this are made is for whom.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: So this point that Savannah made really stood out to me because when I started to be able to articulate a call to ministry, I was really young. But even in that, I spent so much time trying to play nice because I knew that it rocked the boat. I knew that I was making people uncomfortable.
And so, of course, that there was a lot of discomfort in that for me, on top of this whole idea that, like, you need to keep sweet, you need to not rock the boat. And she says something here about Christian unity. And I think it came down to, like, I would feel bad about rocking the boat because I was worried that I was going to be divisive, you know?
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: You know, and being a woman.
[00:23:07] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: You know, being a woman in the church, especially a woman in leadership, it's increasingly felt like a personal and professional tightrope that I've had to walk when it comes to being honest about growing up in this, like, highly controlling religious environment.
That gave me a really narrow view of not just what it meant to be a woman, but what it meant to be a woman in ministry.
And so once I became clergy, the stakes just felt even higher because I didn't. I didn't want to seem difficult or ungrateful or divisive. And I've kind of had to come to terms with, like, there are people who might see me, who I know do probably see me as difficult, ungrateful, divisive, all those things.
But listening to all the varied women and at the same time, like, producing and hosting this season of the Collective Table and exploring the Divine feminine, it all just kind of, like, cracked something open for me. And I think it goes back to just Hearing these posts, Savannah and Beth Allison Barr just lay out the history, the patterns, the pain that other women experienced as well. It was so validating for me. Like, oh, my gosh, like, that's how it really was. It's okay for me to feel that way. And this is still going on for many women.
And in these moments, I was finally able to feel something that I just really hadn't allowed myself to feel before.
[00:24:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that when something is heard from a different voice, that it's. And I think this podcast does it in a very authoritative, well documented, well researched way.
So I think the truth can kind of give you permission to tell your own truth.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And something I admired about their work was they didn't do it in, like, a mean or spiteful way. It's not like they were going in to be like, we're gonna get the Southern Baptist. You know what I mean? And I really respect that because that is my goal too, as a clergy person. And a woman in ministry is like, me telling the truth. It's. It's not giving myself permission to, like, burn bridges or be spiteful, but permission to just, like, stop trying to hold everything together in the name of this false harmony. You know, like the host said, she asks, for whom is harmony at stake?
You know, truth telling isn't divisive. I think that, for me, it's an act of integrity.
And it's not the kind of integrity that gets equated with doctrinal purity or biblical gatekeeping, but integrity that's rooted in honesty and courage and love. And so that's what I'm really carrying with me as we close out this season is this deeper commitment to integrity in my own story. But that was a lot. Thanks for. For letting me share. I. I'm curious, Janelle, what came up for you as you were listening to all the buried women?
[00:26:17] Speaker A: I think a lot of the same.
It brought up a bit of a quiet grief, some memories, certainly.
As I'm listening to your story just now, I'm also feeling like this kind of keep sweet smile, get through it for you in school or for you as you kind of began your process through the ordination, is also a bit of, like, survival mode.
And I think I heard, like, that survival mode when you're trying to push through, like any of us are trying to push through. And I definitely felt that as well.
Um, I've been sad about how many stories have really been lost, not just in the Southern Baptist Convention, but in so many traditions.
Stories of women called by God faithful Wise, brave, but who never got to step into the fullness of their calling.
I'd like to play a clip from all the Buried Women where they do show how women were accepted in leadership in these very, very specific ways. So let's listen in and talk about it after.
[00:27:47] Speaker E: But every system has loopholes, even the Southern Baptist Convention.
In this episode, we are going to talk about the most visible of these loopholes, ways that women could serve in ministry that were generally acceptable and often celebrated by the sbc.
[00:28:03] Speaker F: Those loopholes are.
One, become a professor.
Two, become a missionary.
Three, become a pastor's wife.
These three paths allowed women to functionally lead, preach, and pastor women. And men.
They just weren't allowed to call themselves pastors or be ordained.
In many ways, these loopholes come down to the use of language and. And setting.
Instead of inviting a woman on stage to preach or teach, for example, she was invited instead to share.
Instead of being a pastor, a woman was a director or a missionary or a prayer warrior.
This is what we mean by language loopholes.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: You.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Wow. So, Janelle, you are a minister now who got here by way of one of these loopholes. And I definitely relate a lot to that because I think these. These loopholes were, you know, callings to ministry that were kind of handed to me when I, when I was a teenager and I started expressing a call to ministry.
Know, it was like, oh, maybe you would be a great pastor's wife.
But I, you know, had the privilege of being able to go to divinity school, and I didn't have to be to marry a pastor in order to do ministry. But I want to hear more of your thoughts on what they're pointing out here.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I just even hate loopholes because, like, that is now part of my story. And even though we've moved out of it, like, I still feel like I'm in a loophole. And that has been a whole hard thing in and of itself. But for the long, for the longest time, I just thought that the most I could be in ministry while still staying true to what I had been taught was biblical, was to be a pastor's wife. And that was kind of the ceiling. That was the role that I was allowed to have.
And, I mean, I did rock it.
I rocked that, by the way.
I didn't get paid, and I gave over 40 hours, especially in the early beginnings.
I then became a mom of three daughters. And over that time, I think really seeing them grow, something really started to shift in me. Just like our caller, who his daughters have caused him to kind of question some. Some things that. That he might have been taught before. It gives you a different perspective. And I wanted every possibility for them. I wanted them to be able to do anything they wanted to.
And then I think I had to start, like, turning that around and thinking, why wouldn't there be every possibility for me?
That really started to uncover some cracks in the theology that I'd been handed about women and leadership. Because I will say, like, I'm a follower of Jesus. And one of the things that I have committed to is believing the best of Christ.
So in my reading of the Gospels, I have to believe the best of Christ. And when I'm seeing these two things don't seem to work out, I need to go back to my perspective, what I've been taught.
So in 2008, I really started to ask some deeper questions, I think about scripture, about power. That was right when we're having that economic crash. And so power was really on the front lines.
And maybe the limited place, the limits placed on me in the name of God, for myself, too. Like, I did that to myself, and it took years to untangle. But eventually I realized that I wasn't just allowed to lead, that this had been a calling my entire life.
And listening to this podcast, I was remembering a lot of things growing up. And one of the things that came to me so clearly was growing up in the Southern Baptist Church.
There was something that happened with my mom. And so just because I'm 15 years into her death, miss her terribly.
But I want to just give you a quick insight into my mom's story.
She didn't want to be a pastor, but there was even, like, little things on leadership that were kept from women for crazy, crazy times and crazy reasons.
So my mom was super strong, woman of faith. She was a natural leader. I would say that she was always a walking Hallmark card. She remembered everyone's birthday. She wrote the kindest notes. She checked in on people. She brought food to anyone who was having a baby or financially needed a little help.
Again, she just really never wanted to be a pastor.
But she did want one thing she wanted. She attended the Women's Bible Study Fellowship, and she wanted to be a table leader.
Claire I think, like, the tables had, like, eight women in them.
And so there was a bunch of things that she had to fill out. She'd been a longtime member of the church. She'd been a long time attender of this Bible study.
But because they found out that she had been divorced early on in her life, they told her that she was unfit to. To be a table leader, she could be with the kids.
There was never a question about why she left that husband.
If they wanted to look or even see police records, they could have seen that she was in an abusive marriage.
But none of that seemed to matter.
And that moment was really, it really marked something that felt deeply unfair.
And I just, I'm still angry talking about it because I want to say that I think my mom's gifts were erased. Those eight women at that Bible study table would have been given a rich, deep, interesting conversation with my mom as their table leader.
And these rigid expectations were very specific to women because the church that I was in, there were pastors who were divorced and still being able to keep their title.
And one was really celebrated because that they were going to make sure he could keep his title because his wife had had an affair.
So, you know, it's not even just women who wanted to be pastors that I thought a lot about with this podcast.
And I'll say that that part of my story is absolutely, I think, part of my path even. I'll say now, now that I have moved forward in fully accepting my call to ministry.
So I do have the title, the platform, the privilege. I mean, we're on a podcast. There are a few people that listen, and I feel that this time for me is a bit like holy ground. I don't want to waste it. I want to honor the voices that came before me by fully living into mine.
I want to honor my mom's voice.
I don't want to just speak for myself, but as part of a much longer story.
And to do it with love, not performance, with truth and tenderness. Because for me, that feels like integrity.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that, Janelle. And to go back, I feel like we talk so much about our calls to ministry, like to like full time or ordained ministry. But listening to this story about your mom reminds me that call is not just that.
[00:36:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: God calls all people to different kinds of ministry in the world. Whether or not you're endorsed by a church and ordained and are the person speaking up front. And your mom was clearly called and it, it just makes me, I feel your, your anger and your grief there. When we're thinking about all the buried women. She is one of those, those buried women. It's not just about women who are preaching. It's about all, all of these women doing, doing that work.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And that'll never be in the archives of the sbc.
So how we treat those that got in the archives. There's a whole host of women below that, that never.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Yeah, never. Tip of the iceberg, right? Yeah. And you said something about integrity, like, going back to that. I know that that has taken a lot of courage. And what's rising up for me as I hear your story is again, this thread of control, like how tightly held those boundaries were and still are in so many spaces, you know, for so long and still today, the church, or so many churches still try to control who can lead, who can speak, speak, you know, who can be seen as whole.
And I think one of the hardest truths that even when we step out of outside of those boundaries is that control doesn't just vanish. Some of it gets lodged inside of us, and we internalize it. Like you. You spoke to that really well. And we have to do that work, not just to name it, but not to repeat it or even now is women and as people in leadership, to become the gatekeepers and the wielders of that control ourselves, even if we're doing it unintentionally.
Because I have seen even when systems are upheld by women, not just men, sometimes those boundaries are still set and that control is. Is still has that patriarchal lens to it.
And Reverend Hord Owens touched on this in her episode really well, and it stuck with me. She talked about how if you take on the same leadership style as the oppressor, what good does that do?
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: You know, what are. What are you even building then?
And going back to integrity? It's. You know, I think that that is what integrity means when we talk about leading with integrity and how we create space, how we make sure that what we are building is something different and that it reflects the wholeness and the freedom that we're claiming that we get to claim now.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, just like Lucy, it sounds like we need to get up and.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: Do the work, waking up and. And doing the work. Some holy troublemaking. To go back to Denine's episode.
[00:39:40] Speaker A: There you go.
Holy troublemaking.
It is what got us here, and it's what's going to carry us forward.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Amen, Janelle.
You know, Janelle, at the beginning of this episode, you described this season as a pilgrimage.
And so I've been thinking about that word, how pilgrimages aren't about the destination, but about the people we meet, the truths we uncover, and, you know, the courage that it takes to just keep walking, you know, just to wake up and do the dang thing.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Well, and I think we didn't just walk. We unearthed so much stories that were buried, voices that have been quieted and a deeper sense of our own integrity.
And now that we've uncovered them, we get to decide what to do with them. And I would say for our dear listeners, I hope that this has been something that has been unearthed for them and we can all continue the sacred work.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it is very holy work, I would say. Yeah. So to all of our listeners who have traveled this road with us, whether you've been with us for all 10 seasons or if you just hopped in, maybe it's season nine or ten, we just want to thank you for listening, for questioning with us, for remembering, and for choosing again and again to show up with honesty and heart.
[00:41:24] Speaker A: We want to thank all of our guests as well. And to our listeners who've sent in reflections, shared episodes on social media, or sent them to a friend who needed to hear it.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And finally, thank you to all the buried women who allowed us to use some of their material for this episode.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: If this season meant something to you, we'd love for you to leave a review. If you give us a rating or share your favorite episode online that really helps others find this work that we're doing and it'll keep the conversation going.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: And if you missed an episode that is okay, you can always revisit our episodes. Season 10 and all of our other seasons are going to stay right here in your feed. So maybe there's someone in your life who needs to hear it too. Don't be afraid to pass it on.
[00:42:15] Speaker A: And we'll be back with more soon.
[00:42:18] Speaker B: More soon.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Season 11 is quickly approaching, but for now, from the bottom of our hearts, thank you.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: See you next time.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Here are some questions to consider.
What part of the of this season or this episode helped you see your own story or someone else's in a new light?
When have you had to choose integrity over harmony?
What did that look like for you?
And lastly, who are the buried women in in your own life?
Those whose impact has been powerful but unrecognized.
How might you honor their legacy?
[00:43:34] Speaker B: Thank you so much for listening. The Collective Table is a progressive and affirming Christian platform and a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary Church, a church community committed to inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality. We are rooted in the love, peace and justice of Christ.
Check our show notes to find out more about our website and where you can follow us on social media.
And finally, we would love to hear from you. So send us an
[email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 760-722-8522 and you might be featured on a future episode. We can't wait to hear from you and we'll see.
