[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, friends, to the Collective Table podcast, where we gather diverse voices to explore what it looks like to live out an inclusive, inspiring, and impactful expression of Christian spirituality. I'm your co host, Jason Coker.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: And I'm your other co host, Janelle Coker. And it is super good to be back with you for season 11.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: Yes, I'm very excited. This season feels like a long time coming.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Well, and I have to say, we are very excited for season 11 because we. We are diving into a question that feels more crucial now than I think it ever has before.
It's very relevant to living out a liberating form of Christianity. And here's the question. Are you ready, Jason?
Why is empathy on trial? And why do we believe that it's worth defending?
[00:01:01] Speaker A: So is it just me, or is there suddenly a war on empathy?
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I can't look through my Instagram without seeing a post that says something like, don't let your bleeding heart lead you astray, or we need tough love, not sentimentality.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Right. And if I might say so, particularly from the maga end of the Christian swimming pool.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, let's talk about someone on that end of the pool right now.
Conservative commentator Ali Beth Stuckey, in her book Toxic Empathy, argues that empathy becomes toxic when it encourages you to affirm, sin, validate lies, or support disruptive policies. It's a fear that empathy can be a slippery slope.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Ah, the slippery slope. Christianity's favorite logical fallacy.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: But these aren't just fringe voices.
Besides Ali Beth Stuckey, for example, we have Albert Mohler, who's the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he recently said that empathy elevates feelings above God's truth.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: Wait, so feelings and emotions are outside.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Of God's truth according to him? Apparently so.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: But doesn't Scripture depict God as having feelings?
[00:02:23] Speaker B: It certainly does, Jason.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Well, and doesn't Scripture depict God and Christ acting from a place of strong feeling and emotion?
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Well, let's just say the shortest sentence in the Bible, John 11:35. Jesus wept.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Exactly. So isn't it obvious that emotions are a potential source of good that energize our actions?
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Well, I think that is exactly the tension.
Is empathy an expression of weakness or strength? Is it a virtue or is it a vice?
[00:02:57] Speaker A: Okay, but I feel like I'm missing something here. Like, if it's obvious, biblical even, that emotions can energize us for good actions, then why are these people in particular targeting empathy with their critique as opposed to the actions themselves? Like, is empathy really the problem?
[00:03:17] Speaker B: I think I'm going to answer your question with another question.
I'm wondering if this group even understands what empathy is and what it isn't.
[00:03:37] Speaker C: Hey, C.J. here. We want to take just a quick break to tell you about something we are really excited about. We've just launched the Sanctuary Community.
It's a safe and inclusive place for progressive Christians to connect with each other, learn and grow together and work together to impact their communities. You'll find thoughtful conversations, groups and classes, and helpful resources for growing in your Christian spirituality. If you've been looking for a place where you don't have to hide who you are, where Christianity is expressed in love and liberation, then this community is for you. You can join us today at Community oceansidesanctuary.
We can't wait to see you there.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: So let's clear up what empathy actually is. Psychological research breaks empathy into two parts. Okay, so first is emotional empathy, when you feel some of what another person feels like in your body.
And then there's cognitive empathy, when you understand their perspective, even if you don't feel the same way.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Okay, so hold on. I've always understood empathy to be strictly affective or emotional.
Like, sympathy is what we think and empathy is what we feel.
But what I'm hearing from you is that empathy actually involves both thinking and feeling, right?
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Exactly. And I mean, let me just say that you're not the only one that has understood it this way.
Many people were taught and led to understand empathy in those very terms.
But as research has developed over the years, we've come to understand there's a lot more to it.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Right. So then when Allie Basducky calls empathy toxic, it seems to me like she's trying to demonize emotions. But what you're saying is that empathy involves both thinking and feeling. So then what's the difference between sympathy and empathy? Or even, like, compassion and empathy?
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Well, look, I'm not like a social scientist or psychologist, but here's what I found as I researched an extremely simple. Simple terms.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Sympathy is feeling sorry for somebody.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Compassion is being moved to help somebody.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Okay. Yep.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Whereas empathy is fundamentally about understanding them.
Sympathy, compassion, and empathy all have their place in a continuum of emotions we experience in response to other humans.
But empathy is fundamentally about understanding. It's about connecting with the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of another person.
It imaginatively draws us closer to someone else. Some of us do this more from our head, and some of us do this more from our heart or, like, our mind or our body.
That's totally fine. It makes room for each of us to be us when experiencing empathy.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Okay, so the critical distinction here, then, that I'm getting is that it's not between thinking and feeling.
It's about how close we get to the person we empathize with. So unlike sympathy or pity, which are kind of done from a distance, empathy draws us closer to the person. Like, it establishes a sense of connection with them.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah, and I'd say that closeness can either be because we're actually at a distance, looking afar, or we shut ourselves off emotionally to not go to empathy.
We can't empathize if we're not close enough to really listen and connect with another person.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Right.
So forgive me, but it sounds like, based on all of this, that empathy is something that we should be encouraging, not discouraging.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: I mean, you would think so, yes. Jason. In fact, studies consistently show a strong correlation between empathy and positive mental health outcomes. When we connect with others, it can actually reduce our own stress and anxiety.
The American Psychological association has a bunch of articles highlighting how empathy is a positive factor against burnout and loneliness.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Right.
So then it occurs to me that this whole toxic empathy discourse is a real problem.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: I mean, I really think it is.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: It honestly feels to me like a continuation of the way white American Christianity has always taught us to, like, suppress and deny our emotions, really, to ignore our bodies.
And you know as well as I do that our own church here, the Oceanside Sanctuary, is full of evangelical refugees who are recovering from exactly that kind of Christianity. This just feels like the same old gaslighting tactics.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: So, sadly, there's an empathy deficit.
Sarah Conrath's work at the Indiana University has actually shown a decline in empathy among young people, which is so sad to me. As a faith leader, I believe empathy is the absolute bedrock of a productive and just society. Jason?
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Well, of course. I mean, if we have weak relational connections with other human beings, how can we possibly write fair laws? How do we solve the big social inequalities that we're faced with? Or how do we even have functional communities without the ability to understand the needs and experiences of our neighbors?
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah, these are good questions. I think it's why so many social scientists argue that cultivating empathy is not just like a nice thing to have, but it's a critical skill. It's a skill that we must have for civic engagement and democratic health. It allows us to bridge divides and find common ground to work towards solutions that benefit the whole, not just a select few.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: Is there any good news here, Janelle?
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Well, I think so. In all of my research on this, I found a researcher named Jamil Zaki.
And this person has shown that when we intentionally practice empathy, it can actually change our brains.
It makes us more compassionate, which, to remind listeners, is the emotion that moves us to help another person.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: So are you saying that empathy is like a muscle?
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Exactly. It gets stronger with practice.
[00:11:12] Speaker C: Hello, Collective Table listeners, It's CJ again. A lot of people out there might not realize that this podcast is part of a real life faith community. The Collective Table podcast is a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary a, a progressive Christian community whose mission is to foster collective expressions of inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality wherever it is needed. And as a 501c3 nonprofit organization, that mission is only possible because of the generosity of people just like you. So if you believe in what we are doing, if you benefit from this mission, please Visit
[email protected] Give to Become a Supporter today. Together, we can keep building communities of love and liberation.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: So throughout this conversation, I keep coming back to Jesus weeping at the tomb of Lazarus in John, chapter 11.
And, you know, I've always heard that story interpreted as though Jesus was expressing his own grief over the loss of his friend.
And that never really made sense to me as a kid because, you know, I was always like, well, Jesus knew that he was just going to resurrect Lazarus, so why would he be sad about Lazarus's death?
But this conversation is making me realize that grief alone doesn't really explain his weeping, especially when, you know, the passage says this. So let me just share this if I could. Right. So this is John, chapter 11, verse 32, says, When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, lord, if you'd been here, my brother would not have died.
Verse 33. When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. And like, this conversation is helping me see that so clearly, that his weeping is a direct result of seeing them weep. It's exactly what you're talking about, empathy being.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: I mean, I think it is a powerful image of empathy in scripture, Jesus joins in the grief of Lazarus's sisters and his community. As we're talking, I'm just wondering if this feeling of empathy Jesus felt was actually what moved him to act compassionately.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Right. And so, and I love how the text says that he was, quote, greatly disturbed, which is what empathy must involve, of course, if you are feeling and understanding the pain and the suffering of Somebody else. And I wonder if this is part of what makes empathy so powerful is that it disturbs us enough to lead us to compassion, to act.
And it's provocative, I think, to talk about God, in this case in Christ, as being greatly disturbed.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it really is.
I mean, when we talk about God, I don't know, I always want to move to this kind of all powerful, transcendent being.
But in the person of Jesus, Christian tradition sees God literally, literally stepping into humanity's shoes.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: That's the incarnation. To me, that is the ultimate act of divine empathy.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Yes. Right.
This is why theologian Jurgen Moltmann famously refers to Jesus as, quote, the crucified God.
Because in Christ, God doesn't just observe suffering from a distance. God experiences suffering and the suffering of humanity from the inside.
And so for those of us who identify as Christian, the incarnation is something in which we participate.
So if the incarnation of God in Christ is. Is an act of empathy by which God became human, then maybe it's not a stretch to say that by empathizing as humans, we become more divine.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Well, and how can followers of Jesus be really anything less than empathetic?
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: I mean, loving your neighbor as yourself is fundamentally an invitation to. To empathy, to see our neighbor's struggles, hopes and dreams as if they were our very own.
Which means, Jason, something that I think super important. We must be willing to believe people.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: Yes.
So maybe the ability to empathize is dependent on the willingness of. To believe people.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: To believe their stories.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: And I mean, how can we believe them if we don't first listen?
This conversation on empathy feels so vital to me.
It's why I'm really excited about what we have in store for the rest of this season.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I'm very excited too, and maybe a little nervous because we're trying something different this season. We've been working really hard for the past couple of months to pull together the stories of people who I think are pretty remarkable.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Me too. So over the next six episodes, Jason and I will be sharing the personal journeys of people who have learned how empathy is an important part of. Of their life and faith.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: I think these are stories of really profound connection or their journeys of discovery or even some intense personal struggles.
But a common thread is how empathy enabled them to grow in new and life changing directions.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and as we do this, as we tell these stories, of course, we are hoping that those that are listening to these stories will be challenged to encourage, empathize, and to grow right along together with us.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: And here's one thing that makes this season different. Over the next six episodes, we will be making the case for empathy not by making an analytical argument, but by asking you to empathize with real people's stories.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: That's right, listeners. Take these stories and truly listen.
Ask yourself if you can imagine their circumstances, wonder with them, and in the end, discover if you feel empathy is the way of Christ or a toxic response to other humans.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: So stick with us for the rest of season 11 of the Collective Table Podcast. New episodes will drop every two weeks on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your favorite podcast.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: We're really excited to share this these conversations with you. Until then, may you find moments this week to practice empathy with your neighbor, your family, and yourself. God Bless.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: From all of us here at the Oceanside Sanctuary, thank you for joining us at the Collective Table.
