[00:00:00] Speaker A: My sense was that I wasn't part of the first wave of women going into ministry.
And the question and answer period in some young woman said, well, what are you doing in seminary? You don't expect to be a pastor.
I love to listen to people's stories. Understanding someone's stories is how you can actually walk with them. Them.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Collective Table Podcast. This is Jason Coker at the Oceanside Sanctuary in Oceanside, California. And joining me today are my amazing colleagues, Janelle Coker.
[00:00:46] Speaker C: Hello, everyone.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: And Claire Watson.
[00:00:49] Speaker D: Hi, everyone.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Okay, so I'm excited about today's episode because this week I had the privilege of talking on the phone with Reverend Carol Rawlings, who was the pastor right here at the Oceanside Sanctuary. Back then it was called First Christian Church of Oceanside, but she was the pastor right here from 1987 to 1990.
[00:01:08] Speaker C: And she was just the second woman pastor of this church.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: That's right. And it was during this time when she was the pastor that it was a pretty contentious time here at the church. And really not just here at the church, but the whole practice of ordaining women in Christian churches was really becoming an explosive topic in the 1980s, and.
[00:01:30] Speaker D: Not just the 1980s. I would say that that is still true today in many churches. And I'd even venture to say that most churches in the US have not had a female pastor ever.
[00:01:41] Speaker C: Right?
[00:01:41] Speaker D: Or at least not a name.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I just had coffee with the local pastor on staff at an evangelical megachurch in the area, and he's a pastor, and he reports to another staff member who is a woman.
Like, she's his superior. Right. And she isn't allowed to have the title of pastor because she's a woman.
But before we get, like, too deep into the weeds on that sort of thing, I'd like to start by sharing Reverend Carol's experiences as she sensed a calling to ministry and pursued training and education. Let's take a listen.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: I took a test at one point through the Y to determine what would be a good path for me for work.
And there was a social worker and a teacher of adults, but there was also priest, minister, rabbi. And I just laughed because at that point, I had no thought at all of that.
I went to a conference at Chapman University in California to build strong lay leaders.
And there were several seminaries there trying to encourage you to consider seminary as opposed to just lay leadership.
But I also talked to an ordained minister there, male, older, who told me to go back to the church and just Be a good lay leader. So when I talked to one of my pastors, they asked me how the conference had been. I said, well, I think it was misleading. They advertised it as laity, but there was a real push for people to consider seminary.
So he looked at me and he says, so how much money do you need?
And I went, no, I'm not going.
That's not my plan.
My home church, which is University Christian Church in San Diego, has a good scholarship program, but they had one specifically for ministerial candidates.
They had to get over the hump because, well, it was meant for men.
That scholarship was meant for men pursuing ministry.
Originally, it didn't say that. It just said somebody in ministry. But it had been translated to be for male students going to seminary.
And there were those of the mind that said, well, they meant it to be for men.
But that same church was a teaching church and would have a student from the School of Theology in Claremont come and serve internships there as part of their training.
And more than half of them had been women.
But when it came to giving money, they had to have that conversation. But they got it done because they gave me substantial money.
Like I said, I just kept saying no, and God kept saying yes.
So I gave up.
God won.
[00:05:23] Speaker D: I gave up. God won.
[00:05:26] Speaker C: Right, exactly.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: So I wanted to begin with this clip because Reverend Carol is so, like, vivid about describing what I think are two struggles here. There's the internal struggle with her own calling to ministry, which I think all pastors can identify with, regardless of gender. But there's also this external struggle, the resistance that she faces as a woman stepping into a traditionally male role.
[00:05:53] Speaker C: Well, and I just don't really think you can necessarily separate the two.
Men may face the eternal internal struggle with being called to ministry, but they aren't dealing with the internalized patriarchy, the self condemnation for those who were raised to believe it's sinful for a woman to lead.
[00:06:13] Speaker D: Exactly. And, you know, even if you've settled that within yourself, just wrestling with whether or not it's worth the fight that you're going to have.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Right.
Thank you for saying that. I mean, there's a lot to unpack here.
[00:06:27] Speaker D: Oh, yeah.
[00:06:27] Speaker C: So much.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Well, maybe we should just start with the elephant in the room. Right. Like, lots of people and lots of churches teach that the Bible prohibits women from being in leadership. So how do the two of you come against that notion?
[00:06:45] Speaker C: Well, let's just say it's not true.
We need to realize that patriarchy has deeply biased the way we read and interpret scripture. And even the way Scripture was written. For example, people often think of the New Testament as depicting only male apostles.
But Paul refers to Junia, an exclusively female name, as an apostle in Romans 16:7.
And she was recognized as an apostle by church leaders in the 1st century. But by the 12th century, her name had been changed to the masculine form of Junius.
[00:07:23] Speaker D: Hmm. And you don't have to look very hard to find women leading in Scripture. In that same chapter of Romans 16, Paul calls Phoebe a deacon. And in Acts 18, this woman Priscilla is named alongside of her husband Aquila, as a leader who taught other leaders well.
[00:07:41] Speaker C: And can we just say that women were included among Jesus's followers and, dare I remind everyone, supported the bulk of his ministry financially?
[00:07:53] Speaker D: That's true. Yeah. Well, I'm going to share one of my personal favorites. Women were the first to preach the gospel of Jesus's resurrection.
[00:08:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:02] Speaker D: Mary Magdalene being one of these women who. She was clearly one of his core disciples. But just like so many women's stories, her lore and legacy has been scrambled and edited and even erased and forgotten in parts.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: So despite first Timothy 2:12, women were not, in fact, silent in church. They were highly influential leaders.
So what's up with first Timothy? I mean, this is a letter that's traditionally attributed to the Apostle Paul, who is the very same guy who's affirming women leaders in his letter to the Romans.
[00:08:39] Speaker C: Well, I think it's just what I said earlier. Patriarchy is deeply embedded in culture, so of course we see it in Scripture, but. But we also see the liberation of women in Scripture.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: All right, so we're seeing the debate in Scripture, the discourse.
[00:08:57] Speaker C: Yes. And I know some biblical scholars say Paul didn't write 1 Timothy, but I don't see any reason why this tension could not have existed in Paul ii. I mean, if we've learned anything from this season, from listening to people like Dr. Will Gaffney and Deneen Akers and. And Reverend Terry Horde Owens, it's that all.
We're all affected and shaped by patriarchy.
[00:09:22] Speaker D: Absolutely.
In the earliest Christian communities, women served as apostles and prophets, teachers, priests, even bishops. But a little bit of nerdy church history here for me.
By the third century, as church leadership aligned more closely with Roman social structures, women were just included less and less in leadership and even formally excluded from ordination eventually. And by the way, for anybody who is also a church history nerd like myself, there is a really great book called When Women Were Priests that you can read more about that and we will link it in the show notes.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: I love that, Claire, but I would argue that despite all of this, God wins. Just like Reverend Carroll said that God won when she tried to resist her calling.
I think we can see the evidence that God won in scripture too, because women are shown to be leading by God's spirit.
[00:10:18] Speaker D: Oh, yes.
And that same spirit is still moving through all the women who keep showing up and saying yes to their callings, even when it is really not easy.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: That's a really great segue, Claire, because in this next clip, Reverend Carroll shares some examples of how patriarchy really showed its face through other people's resistance to her calling. Let's take a listen.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: My sense was that I wasn't part of the first wave of women going into ministry.
Placing or getting jobs once you graduated was hard because churches weren't talking to women.
I came up here on a publicity tour for the seminary foundation with another male student and Don, and we went east of the mountains and made a presentation about how important the churches needed to support the foundation, all that kind of stuff.
And the question and answer period in Eastern Washington, some young woman, I would say she was probably in her 20s, said, well, what are you doing in seminary? You don't expect to be a pastor.
I was surprised that it came out of someone so young. And then I sat down for the potluck afterwards, was next to an older woman, and she leaned over and says, you go, girl.
One of my parishes at Oceanside, I did the daughter's wedding and it was a big one and it was just really fun.
Several years later, the mother, a friend of the mother's who've been friends for years, said, well, you know, your daughter and son in law aren't really married.
And she asked why?
And the woman said, well, because Carol officiated.
I mean, we'd have board meetings and then later in the week something would happen at the church. And it's because they made a decision in an after board meeting meeting in the parking lot.
And at one point I confronted the person who tended to be the unelected, if you will, board chair.
But nobody did anything unless this person said, okay.
His response was, well, you don't, you don't run the church.
But that's the same person that told me that they withheld paychecks from a pastor in the 60s who marched with Angela Davis and Cesar Chavez over.
And they literally withheld. And he had a family for two months. And they would told me, the same person told me that when they wanted me to vote a certain way on boycotting table grapes. That was one of the issues that was coming up at general Assembly.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: Okay, can we just talk about the different ways patriarchy is asserting itself in these stories?
[00:13:34] Speaker C: I mean, honestly, it just makes me so sad.
[00:13:37] Speaker D: Yeah, it's. It's kind of hard to listen to.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: So there are some very real microaggressions and you might even say macro aggressions in what she shares here.
And this led me to do some digging because I. I didn't really know much about what microaggressions against women might look like.
And so I'm wondering if I share what I found, would the two of you be willing to share whether or not you faced those kinds of microaggressions?
[00:14:05] Speaker D: Sure.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: I mean, we'll see.
[00:14:07] Speaker D: We'll see.
[00:14:08] Speaker C: See how this goes. But hopefully.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: Okay, all right, so here it goes. So microaggression number one.
And we'll call this assumed incompetence.
This is where, like, maybe a congregant will regularly question a female pastor's interpretation of scripture in a way that they never would with a male pastor. Or, like, a more subtle example would be that they direct their questions to the male pastor in the room, even if the female pastor is there and is maybe even the one responsible for that area of work. Is that something that you guys can identify with?
[00:14:45] Speaker C: Ugh.
Geez.
This is definitely a little triggering.
I will say to your latter point, there have been so many times when I get just kind of subtle signals, or maybe even not not so subtle, where someone, whether it's a church member or just somebody coming in new to the church, makes it clear that they'd rather talk or work with the male pastor.
I try not to take it personally. I mean, Jason, you are one of the smartest kind list and most lovely man pastors around.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Aw, thank you.
[00:15:23] Speaker C: So I'll tell myself, like, maybe somebody just wants in on your loveliness.
But then sometimes it's paired with comments like, oh, you're the other pastor, while literal air quotes and eye rolls are being used around the word pastor.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: What?
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Or better yet, one time, someone even asked me if I was the pastorette.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: What?
[00:15:47] Speaker C: And by the way, both of these comments came from women. I mean, I don't always know that I can put a kind intention around behavior like this.
[00:15:59] Speaker D: Yeah, that's definitely hard to tease out in those kind of interactions. And kind of like, Janelle, I could give you countless examples of this there. We could probably record a whole season if we wanted to. And I haven't even been in ministry that long. I'LL say I've never gotten pastorette, but I have gotten past dress. I'm not sure if that or pastoret is a word, but I have been called a past dress before.
And a little story. At my first church appointment where I was an associate pastor, I responded to a call from a nursing home once. Sometimes nursing homes will call churches and ask for a pastor to come and visit. But the woman I went to see, she was so, so kind, but made it clear to me that I was not what she asked for.
So she asked the staff to send a male pastor instead to pray with her.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Okay.
So. So you're right. I mean, we could, like, unpack those for a long time, but I have a couple more examples. So how about microaggression number two? And we'll call this one feminine reinforcement.
[00:17:07] Speaker D: Right?
[00:17:07] Speaker B: And this is where people focus on a female pastor's appearance, like her clothing, her hair, her makeup, or maybe they'll spotlight her feminine traits rather than, like, her actual work. And so the trick here is, even though these comments are oftentimes positive, they subtly undermine, like, her professional standing by reinforcing, like, gender stereotypes that objectify women or diminish their status. Is that. Does that sound familiar to you guys?
[00:17:38] Speaker C: Hmm.
[00:17:39] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: Well, I mean, as I've said before on this podcast, I love fashion. I really do. And honestly, I feel like I'm always telling somebody, especially a woman, how cute they are. Cutie patootie. And lately, I've really been wondering if that's something that I need to interrogate a little bit more. But I can do that, aside from this podcast.
But here's what I do know. For me, there's this constant internal dialogue about what I'm wearing, especially on Sunday mornings.
And I just worry, like, am I showing too much leg?
Are my arms overly exposed? Is this top too tight or too loud?
There's constantly a voice in my head. It's always there.
And I think it comes from years of being told that it's my job to keep men's eyes on God and not on me. I mean, I grew up in the church.
That messaging was really drilled down into me hard. And if I'm being honest, it's just still there.
Once I had a man tell me that my outfit didn't show off my figure enough on Sunday morning, and that was alarming in, like, a whole nother way.
[00:18:51] Speaker D: Oh, gosh.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: And. And in a way, again, it just drilled even more, like, am I wearing something too big that then causes.
It just is. It's just A whole thing, y' all. And trying to hold all of that while also getting up to preach and proclaim something that's meaningful to an entire congregation.
It's just really a lot.
[00:19:14] Speaker D: It really is. Yeah, it is a lot.
Like Janelle, I used to be told all the time how cute and stylish I looked while giving my. And I'm using air quotes here, little talks on stage. And the thing about that is it's. It's okay to compliment someone on their outfit, but people would do so with no regard or memory for what I had actually said when I was standing up there. But I'll never forget, one Christmas service, I had gotten this new dress that I was so excited to wear.
When I arrived at the church, I had a congregant, a male congregant, come up to me and say, oh, my goodness, you just look so amazing in that dress.
And then he paused and gave me a look and said, that's not something I usually get to say to my pastor.
And, you know, while we don't wear robes at the Oceanside Sanctuary, like clergy robes, I know that in churches where clergy do wear them, a lot of female pastors actually find comfort in the coverage that they give because it keeps these kind of conversations and comments at bay. But hair and shoes, even nail polish, they still seem to find their way in there. And I've been advised by a lot of clergy women just to default to wearing a robe to save myself from the hassle of worrying about what to wear and the inevitable comments.
And I don't want to speak for you, Jason, or my male clergy colleagues, but I would venture to say that this is not a conversation that my male colleagues are having.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: No, I mean, it's definitely not something that I have to worry about. I mean, I get teased a bit for, like, you know, which flannel shirt I'm going to wear on any given Sunday, because that's sort of my shtick. But I never have to think about whether or not I'm responsible for other people's thoughts because of the clothes that I'm wearing. So that's a huge, huge difference.
Okay. So I don't want to, like, move on from it, because it does, again, feel like there's so much that we could, like, dig into here. But I do have one more microaggression I want to share. It's microaggression number three, and we'll call it benevolent sexism.
And this is where, again, you might be given a compliment or you might be given, say, in ministry, a particular role on staff that really limits you to a particular set of gendered expectations. So, for example, a compliment like, it's so nice to have a nurturing person in the pulpit, which implies that women are nurturing as opposed to, say, being strong leaders. Right. Or to the roles example, maybe female pastors are relegated to certain, quote unquote, feminine roles in ministry, like maybe strictly children's ministry.
So I'm wondering again, is this something that you guys have experienced?
[00:22:06] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. This is a regular occurrence for me. You know, I'm. Like I said before, I'm frequently thanked for my special talk, how great my speech was when I get to preach.
And what's particularly interesting about that is even when people recognize that I'm actually preaching, or, you know, they might say, oh, thank you so much for your sermon, it's often followed by a comment like, wow, you are so well spoken. Or your delivery is so impressive, I'm amazed at your intelligence.
And this sounds really nice. You know, if I'm being generous, I assume that they're just being kind.
But sometimes I cannot help but wonder if, as a young woman, they're just not expecting much from me. So when I stand up and deliver a sermon that resonates just as much, if not more than maybe one a man might give, it feels like they're just stunned by my mere competence.
[00:23:03] Speaker C: Can I just say, that stinks. Yeah, it's not like you didn't go to the Big Duke, right?
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Yes, the Duke Seminary graduate. She, wow, she's a smart.
[00:23:15] Speaker C: It's a shock.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: So smart. She speaks well.
[00:23:20] Speaker C: Well, I'll say that I've definitely experienced the whole, like, nurturing mother projection thing, and I've really come to an interesting place with that.
I am a mom, and for many years, I felt like I would say I'm only a mom. But now I'm like, I was a mom, and I am a mom. And it's something that I'm really proud of. In fact, it may be something that I'm most proud of in my life.
So I think I've made peace with some of this projection and decided to take it as a compliment.
However, it can sometimes run a little patronizing. And when it does, I'll respond with something like, I know, right? It takes huge ovaries to get over there and preach on that stage.
Or, yep, I'm a woman.
Hear me roar. I've learned to meet it with some humor and confidence. Because in a way like that wraparound of hearing myself be confident and then Showing others that I'm confident, I think changes the way that I'm seen.
I'm proud of being a female leader, and there are perspectives that I bring because I live in this body.
And I've noticed that when I show up with confidence and fortitude, I usually get less of that patronizing energy.
Now, I'm not going to say that this always works or that it doesn't mean that I'm trying to minimize anybody else's experience.
It's just a strategy to help me hold my ground and stay true to myself and be proud of the things that I've accomplished in this body as a woman.
[00:25:11] Speaker D: I love that. Chanel?
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, there's so much that you shared that I feel like I want to respond to. Like, I loved you saying that sometimes you are. You get the, like, patronizing mom, like, energy. And what I think is interesting about that is that you and I are a married couple who are, you know, a man and a woman, and not just a mom, but also a dad. And we actually have had a staff member in the past who called us mom and dad for a while, and we were like, please don't do.
But there's this danger in us bringing that. Not only bringing that gendered energy as leaders, but then also being perceived that way as leaders.
And so that could be really problematic. And then, of course, that makes me think about the fact that on any given day, we're always messing with those gender expectations. Like, you're much more likely to be swinging a hammer. Right. Or, like, knocking down a wal than I am. And so I think that's really fun to, like, play with those.
[00:26:22] Speaker C: And you do the dishes a lot.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: And I do the dishes a lot. That's true.
But I will say I really loved especially what you said about bringing a particular perspective because you live in your body. I think that's really powerful. And so I'm wondering if you could say a little bit more about what you've noticed about being a leader as a woman.
[00:26:47] Speaker C: I mean, let's just say I think that being a leader is just hard for anybody. I think that imposter syndrome runs deep in clergy.
Any of my friends who are clergy all wrestle with this.
We listened to this clip of Carol talking about pushing through ordination because she believed there was a call on her life from God.
But she was constantly having to convince other people of that call because she came in a different package than they were used to.
And that's not uncommon.
Clergy have all kinds of days where they're just trying to deal with the call themselves, they're questioning whether they heard from God. Sometimes it feels like years before.
And so when you're trying to figure out that the divine called you and you're dealing with that imposter syndrome yourself, and then you're having to also be very confident and tell others, I promise, I promise God called me to do this.
Just because of the body you live in, it can be really hard. So whether you're a man, a woman, a non binary person who's been called to this work, holding onto the memory of your call is hard on its own.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:14] Speaker C: So it's even harder when you're swimming against the tide.
When on top of doing the work, you also feel like you have to prove your worth to everyone else.
That added layer is, quite frankly, exhausting.
Claire, I think I can imagine this answer, but I'm going to ask, do you feel like you have to assert yourself differently as a female leader?
[00:28:37] Speaker D: Yeah, I. I often find that I have to go out of my way to assert myself, especially in places where I'm one of the only women. You know, those types of spaces look more like clergy gatherings or even leading retreats or trips. For example, when I'm the only female pastor at a clergy event, I usually have to be the one to initiate those handshakes with the male pastors, since sometimes they will hesitate and be like, oh, like, are you here with somebody? Are you somebody's wife?
Once I took a youth group on a mission trip with a male chaperone, and throughout the week, almost everyone assumed that he was the youth pastor and that I was his wife.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: What?
[00:29:20] Speaker D: Yeah.
And there's the common assumption that I only enjoy family ministry because I'm a woman. This kind of goes back to that benevolent sexism microaggression. And I've given this a lot of thought because sometimes I have questioned that call, you know, because I have a passion for young people in the church, and so many people have said, you know, I wonder if you've kept yourself there because you're a woman. And I gave that some thought because that's a really good thing to interrogate within myself. But the truth is, I love being a family minister, and I actually think I would enjoy it just as much if I were a man.
So I know my calling is valid regardless of my gender. And as Janelle so wonderfully pointed out, my womanhood brings a distinct value to how I live that out.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: So thank you both for sharing that and especially for sharing the specific experiences you've had. Because you live in the bodies that you do.
I think it's important to circle back and emphasize that, like, despite the weaponization of the Bible against women in ministry and despite the micro and macro aggressions that, you know, patriarchy tends to display, that women, like, in fact, actually can and do lead and frankly, always have led. Right. And I would say, as also a minister, that those actions of leading, especially in spite of those oppressions, is evidence of the spirit of God. It's evidence of the grace of God.
And that itself validates the call.
And so I say that because.
On that note, I want to share one last clip from my conversation with Reverend Carroll, because in this clip, in my opinion, she just demonstrates so much of that, like, grace and spirit that I think really solidifies, like, oh, she clearly is called to do this work. So can we listen to that now?
[00:31:32] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: For me, it was a joy just to be able to walk alongside, to be a part of faith journey, to be there for people who just needed somebody to talk to.
I love to listen to people's stories.
And so to help understand and remind me that, you know, we all have stories, and it's important that we love and care and respect those stories. Understanding someone's stories is. Is how you can actually walk with them, journey that. Take that spiritual journey together.
And while there was the undercurrents, there was a lot of joy. There were weddings, there were baptisms, which is always interesting. There were people who would call me 24 7. I mean, they knew I would be there.
If somebody went to the hospital or, you know, any of that, that I would be there.
To me, that's a huge gift, to be able to be that close, to be able to share the pain and share the joy. And the congregation was good at that. I mean, they.
For the most part, they were very affirming and seemingly very glad that I was there.
My husband and I separated while I was there, and they were very supportive for me.
They were caring. And, yeah, there were some very dear people.
Most of the people, I wouldn't even say that the curmudgeon. Sorry, I shouldn't use that word. Probably the person who provided the royal pain in the side was.
Had his moments. You know, again, how do you. How do you share leadership? For me, we're all in this together.
It was. It was a good experience. And every day, the other thing I like about ministry, every day is different, and there's new, new possibilities in each day.
So it's kind of exciting to see. I mean, I always have a list of what I'm going to do.
Exciting to see where God leads, because sometimes it's not anywhere near where I was going.
I just go, okay, okay, God, I'm listening.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Okay. So obviously, especially given what you all have shared here, the journey towards, like, full equality and acceptance for women in ordained ministry is far from over.
But so in spite of the difficulties that she faced, like, listening to Reverend Carol here describe how much she really loved and honestly, like, still loves the people that she pastored, like, it. It really just gives me so much hope.
And so I'm curious, what gives the two of you hope for the future as we talk about this subject?
[00:35:06] Speaker D: Oh, man. Yeah, you know, we. Like you said, we just heard from Reverend Carol, a woman who pastored this church over 30 years ago.
And now I'm sitting here with Janelle, who follows in her footsteps, and then there's me. You know, I get to sit on the shoulders of women like Carol and Janelle who fought really hard just to be who they are and do what they do.
Listening back to Carol's story, I'm struck by how much it resonates with my own.
I see so much of myself and her experience, and at the same time, I also recognize how stories like hers helped to make my path a whole lot easier.
But I know so many women who are around my age whose callings were actually never questioned, and that was because of the women who came before them. They were raised in churches and communities with the Carols and Janelle's of the world.
Their churches had women in leadership, and that wasn't exceptional. That was just expected and normal. And although that has not always been my experience, I think about the generation of women after me, and I hope that they'll grow up in a world where it's completely unremarkable to have bishops and preachers, priests and pastors who are women, where pastoral ministry is no longer a assumed to just solely belong to men, that leadership in the church is fully open to everyone and that the image of God is reflected in all of it.
[00:36:40] Speaker C: Thank you, Claire. I appreciate that you give me hope.
I think this podcast gives me hope. This season has given me hope.
Our church members that have accepted Claire and me with open arms gives me hope.
We're seeing more robust theological scholarship, and that re examines scripture and traditions with a more inclusive lens.
There's also growing understanding that the gifts and perspectives of women are vital and, in fact, really healthy. That a church really needs to hear from the whole, not just half or the 49.5% when diverse voices are empowered in leadership, the entire community benefits.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: So I really appreciate that you brought it back to the fact that that diversity expresses a wholeness that we're missing when we don't have it.
And I really love that Claire pointed out that she's seen that in action in other places where women were just assumed to be qualified to lead.
And I. And I love that so much. But, like, we're in a historical moment where that feels almost hard to believe, right? Like, because just like, during the 80s, during Reverend Carroll's time, we now live in a time where there has been a massive, like, resurgence of not just, like, patriarchy, but, like, blatant misogyny. And we see this in, like, our national politics, obviously, where hateful and blatantly misogynistic men are denigrating women openly and get elected the national offices in spite of it. But maybe worse than that, I feel like. Like, for me, it's just worse that the American public has looked at that and said, yes, we want more of that. Like, you know, can we have that in.
In our highest positions in the land?
And, like, you know, I'm also reminded of this recent TikTok meme that's come out. And not that, like, I'm on TikTok all the time, but, you know, even I have noticed this. This horrific meme where this young woman and the. And the meme is titled, like, when a woman tells me she's a pastor, and then she pulls out this long piece of tape and then, like, pantomimes putting it over this woman pastor's mouth. Like, women should just tape their mouths shut in church. And that just makes me so crazy every time I see it.
And these kinds of messages, they're not just wrong, they're harmful. They're really doing real harm to women and young and girls who are seeing them, and they're seeing it more than ever before.
So, like, at the risk of derailing the conversation about hope, I'm wondering, like, in your view, how can we actively resist this current, like, cultural tide?
[00:40:00] Speaker C: So, yeah, we always try to end these podcasts on a hopeful note, but I will just say that this is painful. That TikTok video, which has now made its way to Instagram and lots of people are making their own videos around it, is.
It's so upsetting.
And if I'm being real, I'm scared.
I'm scared not just for myself, but for all the women that Claire just talked about in her time of hope. For those women coming up, the ones who started starting just now, to hear the call of God in a world that is becoming increasingly hostile and hostile towards strong women, hostile towards faithful women.
I'm scared because I know what it's taken for me to get here.
My own journey hasn't been super easy.
It's been long and hard won.
And I think it's important to say this clearly, that what's happening right now, this surge of hate, the silencing, the mockery, the damage, it's really painful.
But as a spiritual director, I'll just say that grief does some good work.
And so I will say that I think one of the first things that we need to do is have the grief.
We can let it do its work. Grief can be powerful.
My showing my grief can be powerful.
I believe in humanity, and I believe that it can stir empathy.
It can call us to action.
So let's name it.
The resurgence of anger and suspicion towards women in spiritual leadership should move us to tears.
We should be tearing our sackcloth. We should be mourning.
We should be calling out the injustice loud and clear.
And then once we deal with that grief and walk through that grief and feel that grief, we need to remember, we need to write this down. History matters.
Our history matters.
The stories of women who have led, preached, pastored, and served have too often been erased.
Junia's name wasn't the first to be changed to fit patriarchal narratives. And let me promise that it will not be the last.
That's why bearing witness matters.
I hope, truly, that someone bears witness to my work, that one day, 100 years from now, someone remembers that the third female pastor at Oceanside Sanctuary showed up, that she stayed faithful and that she told the truth, that she loved the people that came to our pantry, that she showed kindness.
And if things get uglier before they get better, I hope that my story will be a remnant of hope.
[00:43:36] Speaker D: Oh, my goodness.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: So good.
[00:43:38] Speaker D: Yeah, that was beautiful, Janelle. And I. I also just want to say, you said, I hope my story will be a remnant of hope.
Like, I hope your story is more than just a remnant. It's more. It's way more than a remnant to me.
And like. Like you said, you were talking about writing things down and the importance of preserving history.
This is why institutional memory and history matters so much.
And to add to all of that, when we're talking about actually the importance of institution, things like formal mentorship, formal training, formal pathways for women and girls, that is crucial for dismantling this silencing and the erasure of women, especially in Church.
And, you know, as a teenager, I would lead Bible studies at school. I spoke at youth group. I organized prayer gatherings.
But the formal and informal messaging was still clear. That actual ministry was not for someone like me.
It was for my male peers.
However, when I was in middle school, I will never forget, I was at a youth camp, and a male youth leader from another church asked me if I had ever considered becoming a pastor.
At the time, I didn't even know women could be pastors.
And so, frankly, that question kind of confused me. But his question planted a seed in me and opened my eyes to these possibilities that I had never imagined before.
So, all of that being said, it's vital for churches and leaders in churches to actively foster mentorship and create formal and clear pathways for women in ministry.
You know, this is more than just affirmation and support.
It's about intentional action going out of our way to make space for women's leadership.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Okay, so those are. I wasn't expecting either of those answers, but that's so good, because, you know, for Janelle to point out that we need to intentionally remember and tell those stories to, like, keep those records, like, that's a very tangible, very institutional thing. Right.
And then for you to talk about, like, making very clear, very formal pathways for women and for girls to pursue ministry, also another, like, very institutional thing.
And so it occurs to me that a lot of this has to do with creating these formal structures, that we tend to think of resistance as something organic or individual, but we're really talking about protecting the opportunities that only institutions can create and protect. Right.
And so I just appreciate that because I think that means there's a lot of work to do. And I'll just add this on that note.
Institutions also need to be really clear and articulate policies against the kinds of things that women in ministry do experience, like discrimination and harassment and abuse and assault. Like, one of the things we know is that this is just extraordinarily prevalent in churches. Right. So once women do get into ministry, we need to create cultures where there are policies against those kinds of behaviors, where there are really clear ways of reporting those instances and addressing them. And all of this should hopefully create a culture that is safe, that is open, that that really makes space for everybody to lead.
[00:47:37] Speaker D: Absolutely. If we're going to invite and welcome and support women in ministry, they. It needs to be a safe place for them.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Yes.
Well, this has been such a great conversation.
I feel like we could go on and on, but we need to wrap it up I'm really grateful for both of you for joining me and really for being willing to share your own stories and your own, like, vulnerabilities around this, this topic. And thank you both for being brave and forging ahead as women leaders in this church at the Oceanside Sanctuary, because we really benefit from both of you and your gifts. So thank you.
[00:48:17] Speaker C: You're welcome.
[00:48:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:19] Speaker C: And I'd like to just say Carol, Reverend Carol, if you are listening, thank you so much. Thank you for pushing through in the 1980s. I know it wasn't easy, and so many of your stories, while they resonate, I also feel like you laid a groundwork. So we appreciate you and are continuing this legacy that you are part of.
[00:48:47] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:48:48] Speaker C: And then, honestly, we want to tell you a little bit more about something Claire and I are working on. Woo.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: Woo.
[00:48:56] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:58] Speaker C: For our finale episode of season 10, the 50.5%, we're going to be sharing even more of our own experiences as clergy women and reflecting on a recent podcast series that really resonated with us both. I mean, she was telling me, have you gotten to this episode yet? And then I'm calling her. I'm in tears.
It's called all the Buried Women.
So be on the lookout for our episode coming, but maybe we'd like to just give a shout out and say, if you have time, go and give all the Buried Women a listen. It's hosted by Savannah Locke and Beth Allison Barr.
It's a powerful look at the stories of women whose callings and contributions have been lost, silenced, or erased by the institutions that they served.
[00:49:52] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm looking forward to sharing that conversation with our listeners. You know, this was a podcast that it seemed to have a lot of resonance with what we're talking about in this season of the Collective Table. And so I really thought. Janelle and I thought it would be a really great way for us to. To wrap up the season.
So thank you all for joining us today. Before we let you go, though, we would like to share some questions for you to consider.
How does it make you feel when you hear that the apostle Junia's name and Romans 16 was changed to a man's name?
Can you remember a time when you were treated unfairly because of something about yourself that you could not change?
For example, sex, race, nationality, disability?
And finally, what is giving you hope around the continuing struggle faced by women in our society?
Or how do you feel called to subvert patriarchal norms that hold women back?
Thank you so much for listening. The Collective Table is a progressive and affirming Christian platform and a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary Church, a church community committed to inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality. We are rooted in the love, peace and justice of Christ.
Check our show notes to find out more about our website and where you can follow us on social media.
And finally, we would love to hear from you. So send us an
[email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 760-722-8522 and you might be featured on a future episode. We can't wait to hear from you and we'll see you soon.
