[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey friends, Nico here. I'm so glad you're joining us for another edition of the Collective Table Podcast in our TCT Book Club series. If you've been following along, you know this is where we gather every month to read and discuss books that help us imagine a more inclusive, inspiring and grounded expression of Christian spirituality. Each conversation takes place live on Zoom with the author, and you're always invited to join in. If you'd like to be part of future book club sessions, connect with us on our online
[email protected] There you can join the book club group, connect with other members, and hop into the live sessions right from our digital space. This month our host, Jason Coker, along with other book club members, sat down with Dr. Peter Makari, co author of Rooted in Faith and Christian Calls the Conscience and Cries for Peace in Palestine. They talk about how Christian faith communities can engage issues of Israel, Palestine, anti Semitism and human rights. Makari explains the long history of Christian denominations condemning anti Semitism while still critiquing Israeli government policies, and he urges listeners to center the voices of Palestinian Christians in understanding the conflict. The discussion touches on misinformation in the west, the importance of decolonizing assumptions, and practical steps people of faith can take to support justice and peace. So settle in and enjoy this thoughtful conversation between the TCT book club and Dr. Peter Makari right here on the Collective table.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: So welcome Peter Makari. He's asked that I not call him doctor so please don't think that I'm being disrespectful.
But Peter Makari is the co author, as I believe you all know of, Rooted in Faith and Justice, Christian Calls to Conscience and Cries for Peace in Palestine. It's really co editor, along with Rebecca Coat. I'm not sure that I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Choate thank you. Rebecca Choate and Krista Johnson Weaksal Weichsel Weitzel thank you.
And so it's a collection of essays and some of you have noted that there are a lot of themes throughout these essays that are repeated, but on the whole gives a really broad introduction to issues of peace and justice in Palestine.
And does it really, especially from a perspective that I think is is useful for us at the Oceanside Sanctuary as a congregation that's a part of the Disciples of Christ because the authors have overlap with the Disciples of Christ and the United Churches of Christ. And so Speaking of that, Dr. Peter Makari serves as Global Relations Minister for the Middle east and Europe with Global Ministries, a position he has held since 2000.
He serves as a co convener of the National Council of Churches Inter Religious Convening Table and has participated in national Jewish Christian and Muslim Christian Dialogue initiatives. He represents the United Church of Christ and Disciples on the Faith Forum for Middle East Policy as a co convener and on the Board of Churches for Middle East Peace.
An Egyptian American, Dr. Makari has lived in the Middle east, where he worked with the Coptic Evangelical Organization for Social Services in Cairo, Egypt, and the Middle East Council of Churches based in Cyprus. Welcome, Dr. Makari. We're excited to have you join us.
[00:03:30] Speaker C: Thank you so much. It's really good to be with you and I look forward to the conversation.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: We do too. I thought, if it's okay with you, that I would start with just a reading from the book itself. And actually I'd like to read something from your chapter which is on Anti Semitism comes from page 61.
And I am at the age where I definitely need to put on my reading glasses, so this is the bit that really jumped out at me. It says this the declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel and Palestine in 1948 purported indeed in part to offer a place of refuge for European Jews fleeing persecution.
There, European Jews joined small communities of Palestinian Jews who lived alongside the majority Palestinian Muslim and Christian community.
Even so, Palestinians and others believe atonement for European antisemitism should not have come at the expense of Palestinians. Then you go on to add this, which I think is important.
The practices and policies of the State of Israel vis a vis the Palestinian people have also drawn criticism from many corners of the globe and from many communities. Established in 1948 and adopting the Nation State Law in 2018, Israel defines itself as a Jewish state despite more than one fifth of its citizenry being non Jewish.
Since the 1967 war, Israel has occupied and controlled a Palestinian population in East Jerusalem, the West bank and Gaza that does not have Israeli citizenship nor the associated rights, but lives under an Israeli military regime.
Criticism of Israel's policies and practices is often characterized by Israeli officials and its defenders as anti Semitic because it is directed at the Jewish state and because they would say Israel is being held to a different standard than other countries in the world.
I picked that bit from your chapter because it really, I think, rings true about one of the issues that comes up whenever I am discussing Israel Palestine with other clergy in particular. And so as a mainline Disciples of Christ's clergy person, I'm involved in relationships locally that are interfaith and ecumenical. And for a couple years, until recently, we organized the local clergy council here in North San Diego County. And in those relationships with my colleagues and friends who are rabbis in centers, the overwhelming sense that I get from them, even before, you know, the events of October 7th two years ago, even before that, the overwhelming sense I get from them is a general sense of sadness and real fear about rising antisemitism.
And so I think your chapter was really important because it occurs to me that anti Semitism tends to be the wedge issue that divides people who might otherwise be very reasonable about the obviously destructive and unjust policies that Israel has towards Palestinians.
But because of this fear of being anti Semitic or this fear of being perceived as anti Semitic, those conversations just tend to be non starters. Right. And so, and those complications I will share, they permeate interfaith and ecumenical clergy relationships to the point where it's hard to have these kinds of conversations even at that level. So I'm wondering if maybe just to start, and I know that this might be starting in the deep end a bit, but this just strikes me as like such an important issue at the heart of having any dialogue about this. I wonder if you might be willing to share a little bit of your own experiences about like maybe fruitful or productive ways of engaging in conversations across interfaith relationships and addressing this issue of antisemitism and being able to make a distinction between antisemitism and critique of Israeli policies.
What has maybe given you some hope or what has worked? What have you observed that's been fruitful?
[00:08:21] Speaker C: Thank you so much. You're right.
We are diving right into the deep end.
I want to be clear first of all, in saying that the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ and many of the mainline Protestant churches in the US have been very clear in our denunciation of antisemitism in all its forms.
And we are committed to, to inter religious dialogue, and that includes Jewish Christian dialogue. We participate in that at the national setting through the National Council of Churches and National Council of Synagogues. And we encourage the relationships that local churches have established over the years with neighboring synagogues to continue to nurture the those relationships and to have the hard conversations because it's really difficult to know that there is a big issue, an elephant in the room that you're kind of very careful about or avoiding in order not to disrupt a relationship in times like this. Like you said, global events do have impact on interreligious relations.
And at times like this, it's especially sensitive when charges of antisemitism are introduced, there is a tendency to perhaps retreat a little bit and be a little more cautious about how we engage. And I think it's important to be sensitive in the ways that we engage. Absolutely.
But we must be very open and clear in our denunciation of antisemitism, to speak out when we see it and to make sure that our Jewish friends are aware that we are friends. And we want to be present and accompany and walk in solidarity with them as they experience, you know, bigotry and hatred and, you know, rhetorical as well as physical violence, which certainly exists. And all of those things are realities. At the same time, we want to continue to assert that criticism of a government's policies are not the same as hatred of a people.
And we can demonstrate that through our consistent critique of governmental policies. As churches, we are critical of US Policies and are engaged in advocacy with US Policies. Whether it's a Republican or a Democrat in the White House or whichever party is controlling Congress or.
There are principles that we derive from our understanding of Scripture that uplift human dignity and the equality of all people.
We work against poverty, we work against racism, we work for social justice in our own country and are critical of ways that our government does not advance those principles.
Similarly, we're critical of governmental policies of countries around the world.
When we see violations of rights and we see violations of human dignity that we become aware of oftentimes because of the partnerships that we have through the church through our missional relationships, those are ways that we have an access to perspectives on realities on the ground in different parts of the world that we may not be able to access through our traditional media.
So those missional and church relationships are important for us.
Through global ministries, the disciples have about 250 partners around the world in about 90 countries. So those are places that we have connections, we have ties to communities, and we have access to information and realities that may not be normally accessible through media.
Part of that is our relationship with Middle Eastern Christians and including Palestinian Christians, who have been telling us for a long time that they are living under realities that are abhorrent and that our government has contributed to perpetuating.
So when we're critical of Israeli policies and also critical of US Government policies that enable and perpetuate those policies in Israel toward the Palestinians, we are listening to our partners voices.
And we also.
We also are not engaging in acts or discourse of hatred toward a people.
One thing we have noticed very clearly, especially in these last two years, is that there's a variety of opinion regarding Israel and its policies within the Jewish community.
So when we look at encampments on college campuses, we see not only Palestinian Americans, Palestinian students in the US but we also see American Jews who are engaged in those demonstrations. That's just a visible illustration of the kinds of engagement and diversity of opinion within the Jewish community that exists.
I am, I know from my own encounters with Jewish friends that there's a diversity of opinion on Israeli policies.
So, you know, it's, I would say, also anti Semitic to generalize about Jewish opinion.
And so in order to sort of respond to the charge of anti Semitism, I think it's just important for us to insist that criticism of a government's policy is not the same as hatred of a people.
And we abhor any ideology or theology that excludes or, you know, results in hateful attitudes toward any particular person or community.
So it's a tough question, but at the same time, I think we need to be very clear that in our criticisms of government policies, we're consistent in terms of our engagement with of US Policy as well as governments around the world.
And also that we recognize that some criticism of Israel could be motivated by anti Semitism. But that isn't where we are coming from. So as a church, our engagement is for peace and justice for all the people there, including the Jews, Muslims and Christians. And we want to be able to accompany those who are engaged in nonviolent resistance to oppressive policies and also to lift up their voices, but also to engage in advocacy with our governments, with our government, U.S. government that has perpetuated, has allowed to perpetuate policies that are harmful to the community that we have a close relationship with on the ground there.
[00:17:17] Speaker D: Hello, Collective Table listeners. It's CJ again. A lot of people out there might not realize that this podcast is part of a real life faith community. The Collective Table podcast is a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary, a progressive Christian community whose mission is to foster collective expressions of inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality wherever it is needed. And as a 501c3 nonprofit organization, that mission is only possible because of the generosity of people just like you. So if you believe in what we are doing, if you benefit from this mission, please Visit
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[00:18:15] Speaker B: So we thank you for that response and also for emphasizing how institutions like the Disciples of Christ and the United Church of Christ have have been explicit in their denunciation of anti Semitism. I think that's very, very important to restate and to remember.
Before we continue, I just want to invite those who are on here, Denise, Caroline, John, and Leanne. If you want to jump in with a question, please feel free to type in the comments.
Just, you don't have to like type out a whole question, but just type in, hey, I have a question about this. And then I'll be watchful for that and I'll call on you as you pop into the chat.
And in the meantime, I'll just continue to facilitate the conversation. And so while you're thinking about what questions you might have for Peter, I'll just jump into the next question, which in all fairness to Peter, I did not send him in advance.
But it is just this we're wondering how did you get engaged in this kind of work to begin with? Like, how does your story intersect with these issues? What's, what's driving your passion for this?
[00:19:28] Speaker C: Sure. Thank you.
Well, you know, you alluded to that in presenting my bio. I have roots in the region. My father is Egyptian. He's a Presbyterian minister, ordained in the Presbyterian Church of Egypt and came to the US after completing a seminary degree in Cairo and continued seminary studies here in the US and married my mother, who is who was an Indianan. So I have mixed heritage, Egyptian and Indianan.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:20:10] Speaker C: So I'm connected to both places and so have roots in the Middle east, in the Christian community in the Middle East. So it's personal for me in a way.
I also have done academic study. My master's was in Middle east studies and my doctoral degree was in Middle east politics, political science and Middle east studies.
And also my own formation, growing up as a pastor's kid and experiencing discernment of call to work in the church.
And a big part of that was living and working in the Middle east with the Christian communities there. And you also highlighted that in the introduction.
So it's personal for me, but it's also academic and also professional. I mean, my career has been working with the churches of the region and also in in our churches here. So it's a multi faceted sense of calling. It's a passion and I see it as life work. So learning about the realities of Christians in the region and Christian churches and their presence and engagement in their societies, all of that has been incredibly informative and formative for me.
And I hope that I can be a bridge between the places that I have roots in and interpret one to the other both ways, really, because I have the privilege of representing the disciples and the UCC in the region with our partners.
So it's an opportunity for me to make connections and to interpret both places to the other.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Well, if you don't mind, perhaps we could put some of that academic study to good use here. In our conversation tonight. I just wanted to ask, how have you found it helpful for Christians to have a better historical and political understanding of the context of that region?
And you know, perhaps for laymen and lay women here on the chat, like, how have you been able to help people understand the complexities of the context of the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis, the establishment of Israel? What have you found is helpful for people understanding what's really going on here?
[00:23:01] Speaker C: Certainly in a church setting, it's been especially important to lift up the Middle Eastern Christian presence and voice and for our members in the disciples in UCC to have exposure to voices from the region.
And you know, I think our media overgeneralizes, you know, in a pejorative way, the people of the region.
There is studies, there are studies to show anti Islam bias and anti Arab bias, not just in news, but also in portrayal of Arabs in TV and movies, you know, sort of general cultural bias about Middle Easterners.
So I think it's especially important for people in our churches to have access to voices that debunk those kinds of portrayals of Middle Easterners.
The idea, for example, that Israel, Palestine is a millennia long conflict that never can be resolved because it's based in absolute religious terms that set up conflict between Jews and Muslims, you know, that's kind of a simplification of a portrayal of the region.
But that framing is unfair for many reasons.
But part of it is because it marginalizes and eliminates the Christian presence from the picture.
So we don't necessarily even know about the presence of Christians in the Middle East. I remember when I was young hearing my dad speak in a local church once about the situation in the Middle east and sharing the question he would get as a Middle Eastern Christian, when did you convert to Christianity?
And the tongue in cheek response is 2000 years ago.
Christianity started there, don't forget it.
And the Christian community has deep roots there and are proud of that rootedness. And that's part of the reason we chose the title of the book the Way We Did.
But also the numerically small presence of Christians in the Middle east doesn't negate their historical presence as well as their current engagement in their societies.
It's surprising, I think, for some to learn that Christian institutions in Palestine, schools, hospitals, community development organizations, social service organizations, those Are the things third largest employer of people in Palestine after the Palestinian Authority, the government, and then second, the United Nations. Third, are the Christian institutions.
Even though Christians make up about a little less than 1% of the overall population, their institutions have that significant impact.
So just to sort of understand the extent of the witness of Christians in the Middle east, in their societies, despite being a numerical minority, but also rejecting the idea of being categorized as a minority, they don't see themselves as less than anyone else and they see themselves as part and parcel of the fabric of Middle Eastern society.
So how can we tap into those relationships that we have through the church to understand the realities on the ground differently?
You know, the idea that this is a religious conflict rooted in absolute claims that cannot ever be resolved also is a framing that takes us away from an understanding of political and economic and social rights as well as human rights that are being violated, but issues that can be actually addressed through following international law, for example, and principles of human rights and human dignity.
These are aspects of the reality on the ground that I think are shaded or covered up by a simplistic framing of the conflict as a religious one that is only about absolute claims.
So maybe those are two aspects that are helpful for members in our churches to grapple with and to, you know, engage this issue perhaps differently than we've thought about it before.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: I really appreciate you bringing up that issue of sort of religious framing and characterizing this conflict as a kind of inevitable conflict that's in God's hands. I think the thing that we often hear in certain kinds of churches, both evangelical and mainline, this is certainly not, you know, endemic to just one, you know, type of Christianity, but narratives like, oh, this conflict is just a perpetuation of like, the tension between Isaac and Ishmael. Right. Like it's sort of meant to be in some God ordained way, or the idea that, you know, this land is the land that was promised, you know, the promised land for the defend the descendants of Abraham and, you know, God's ordained this. And, and that's a narrative, of course, that, that even political parties in Israel make a lot of hay out of. And, and I'm wondering when Christians bring those, those very simplistic objections to you, what have you found are the best ways to diffuse that?
[00:30:06] Speaker C: Yeah, another good.
Big question.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: We only have big questions here, Peter.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: Sorry.
So, yes, I mean, I think first of all, we cannot deny that there are religious aspects to the conflict, even though also Palestinian Christians typically reject the use of the word conflict because conflict implies, you know, a Disagreement or a crisis between two parties that have sort of equal status.
Whereas in this case, you know, one party, Israel is a recognized country with a powerful army that's supported by Western powers.
And the Palestinians don't even have a state and are living, as you mentioned earlier from the reading, in military occupation controlled by Israel.
Not only are there Israeli Jews who are committed to the idea that that land belongs to them because it's ordained by God and they are there to protect it from others who may make a claim, but also there are American Christians and Western Christians and Christians from other parts of the world who we call Christian Zionists and we have a chapter on Christian Zionism in the book, who believe that in order for Christianity Christ to come again, the Jews of the world need to be gathered again in biblical Israel, at which time Christ will come and those who believe will be saved and those who don't will be condemned for eternity.
And so for those who Christian Zionists, the presence of the state of Israel today, the modern state of Israel is part of the divine plan and one of the steps, one of the dispensations stages that pave the way for Christ's coming.
And of course, playing that scenario out, we see that the theology, that particular reading of scripture is anti Semitic in itself because Jews who don't convert, who don't become Christian, who don't believe in that Christ, are condemned for eternity. So in this theology, the Jews are a tool for bringing about the second coming of Christ.
And you know, imposing that idea on the modern state of Israel means that there's a lot of support among Christians who read the Bible in a particular way for Israel's policies.
So, you know, I think, I think we have different views within the Christian community globally as well on this.
But coming back to the idea that we don't have the greatest education about the Middle east in our school curriculum and in other places, there is this perhaps semi or subconscious association between biblical Israel, which we learn about in church on Sunday and Sunday school as we're growing up, and the Israel of today.
And as a church, we make clear the distinction between biblical Israel and the modern state of Israel.
The idea that the idea of the covenant between God and Abraham that we read about in Hebrew scriptures is something that our churches have not rejected. In other words, we don't engage in supersessionist or replacement theology. We don't believe that Christ Christ came and replaced the covenant that we read about in the Hebrew scriptures. But we also understand God's covenant to be one that has universal application and not limited to a particular people.
The Hebrew Scriptures are the story of a particular people, but we understand a more universal message of in the prophets and in Christ's teaching. So we don't engage in supercessionist theology or replacement theology, but we do read the scriptures in their entirety and lift up also the prophetic from Hebrew scriptures as well as understanding Christ's message as part of that story.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: So that conversation about different kinds of churches, different kinds of teachings, different kinds of interpretations and ways of reading scripture and interpreting it, I think maybe is a good segue. Caroline, for your question, would you be interested in offering that up to Peter?
[00:36:22] Speaker E: Hi, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I just find this all so fascinating because I think I have grown very ignorant of, of what has happened in the history. I'm learning a lot as I get older about what has taken place. But I'm wondering if you are receiving a lot of.
I just absolutely lost the word pushback from churches to learning more about.
[00:36:55] Speaker F: What.
[00:36:56] Speaker E: The history is and what the role of us as Christians play in that. I, I was just listening today to and I'm not, I'm going to butcher his name. The new mayor of New York and and all of the.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah, haven't you heard that meme? The name is Mamdani. M A M D A N I Mamdani.
[00:37:22] Speaker E: And they were just talking about, you know, the, the automatic stereotypes that is being, are being put on him automatically that he fits this category. And I just find that frustrating.
I'm just wondering how it is when you're going through trying to do your teachings and build those bridges. What kind of reception do you get?
[00:37:46] Speaker C: That's a good question.
In helping our churches understand the issue from the perspective of our partners and in speaking in local churches and so forth, I found that, I found not a lot of pushback, actually. People either have some idea that there is some part of the story that they just don't, they aren't getting, or they just didn't have any. They acknowledged that they didn't have any idea about, you know, sort of another perspective.
So the fact that we are attempting in this book and in other ways to bring voices of Palestinian Christians whom we know and trust and love to our members is, you know, an authentic presentation of those voices and also access to perspectives that people may not have had before. So, you know, a lot of response like, I just didn't know and, you know, this makes sense or I knew there was an aspect to the story that we just weren't getting and I think in the last two years, despite the reality of genocide. And the Christian church, disciples of Christ leaders as well as General assembly have used the term genocide to describe what is what has happened to Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, in this context of two years of genocide.
Some of those narrative barriers have been broken and stories are getting through differently because people are relying on more than just the traditional mainstream media now. Through social media, there is more access. Even though there aren't any foreign reporters in Gaza, they're not allowed to be in Gaza. And more journalists in Gaza, Palestinian journalists in Gaza have been killed in these two years than journalists in any other conflict.
You know, even so, the voices of Palestinians in Gaza are emerging and getting out. So, you know, some of that narrative blind spot is being broken through and we have access to that.
So, you know, part of the benefit of the timing of this book was that people are paying attention to what is happening in Gaza. We did not write this book because of Gaza. We, we wrote it with a sort of broader and longer historical perspective and not only about October 7, 2023, because Palestinians consistently remind us that history did not begin on October 7, 2023. And I hope that comes through in the book as well, that there's a much longer, a century long, long history of denial of Palestinian rights and occupation and settler colonialism. All of these terms that we use in the book, they didn't just emerge in the last two years.
So the opportunity to prepare this book in this time is especially, I don't want to say fortuitous because genocide is not something we want to take advantage of. And I don't really know how to say it otherwise we wish that wasn't the case, but we know that in this moment there is a hunger for information and perspectives that we're not necessarily getting through the traditional media.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: So I think really great segue for John's question. So John, I wonder if he might be willing to ask yours next.
[00:42:23] Speaker F: Sure.
And first of all, I really appreciated the book.
I thought it covered so many different things. And one of the, one of the things that, and I'm going to speak for myself is that just prior to reading this book and over the last several years I've been trying to become more educated about it, is just realized what a simplistic view I had of the Middle east situation.
And for all some of the reasons that you talked about and some of the frustrations that I have found as, as I talk with others, let's say, in my generation especially, and, and people from the church or in churches, there there's just this dramatic ignorance of the, what is actually going on when, when I start to describe some of the things of, you know, know, the second class citizenry and there's the walls of where they can't go and the, the settlers and how they're just taking land and just all that. No, that's not happening. That can't be happening. And it's, you know, this denial. I know I'm, I'm not, I haven't gotten to my question yet. So.
But I just, for me this book was really good because in a relatively concise manner you've hit a lot of the key areas.
So this was good. The question I have is that, and I think you partially answered it with Caroline's question, but how do we get people, how do we help people understand the facts? And you know, and I, and I'm almost thinking it's similar to what we have faced with educating the white population about racial history in our own country. And there's been a denial of facts and there's been a denial of and you know, just simplistic views and simplistic answers. And I recently was just with my former college roommate. So we're both in our 70s and we hadn't seen each other for a while and this was last year when, you know, October 7th really happened. And, and he's a very faithful Christian and but his perspective, and you touched on it earlier, was that, was that, well, this is the land that God promised the Israelis and if the Palestinians are in their way, they just got to get out of the way.
And then when I would bring up the atrocities and the second class citizenship and all of those types of things, it said, well, you know, God's given that land to the Jewish people and it's just that very overly simplistic thing.
And it was beginning to really put friction on our relationship and so we kind of had to just back off a little bit. But anyway, I guess my question is, you know, how do we try and help educate people and maybe just talk more about your book to them and have them read it because it's well documented and it's well done. But that's my frustration as so many people just don't really understand what's going on there. Sorry for the long winded.
[00:46:15] Speaker C: Thank you for the affirmation about the book. We really did try to make the chapters digestible and ones that book study groups could engage but also, you know, prompt further study.
And we listed a few further reading suggestions in the back of the book, you know, one of our authors in the book, Rev. Dr. Mitri Rahib, is a preeminent Palestinian Lutheran contextual theologian.
And he talks about reading the Bible contextually and from a Middle Eastern Christian, Palestinian Christian point of view.
He talks about the Exodus story and the Israelites, exodus from Egypt and coming to the, to the Promised Land.
And, you know, sort of that being the end of the story as most people know it.
But, you know, so we read the story of the Book of Exodus, but he says often people don't read the book of Joshua.
And so that's a continuation of the story.
And that book talks about the presence of the Canaanites in the land, when the Israelites got there, and of course, the battles for the land.
And he asks, can we believe in a God that commands genocide of a people? And so that's a critical reading of Scripture, and that's difficult for people to think about if you're a literalist and you believe this is what is supposed to be.
But how do you engage critically in reading of Scripture and what is the text saying, and how do we square that with what the text is saying in other places?
So the question of, of historical covenant and the story of Exodus and arrival in the Promised Land and so forth, what is the rest of that story and how do we understand that contextually? So, you know, these are important, important theological questions and can be a basis for conversation.
It's important, important not just to read the parts that you might like. There are other parts that are challenging in the Scripture. And how do we square conflicting messages from different parts of the Bible?
So I think learning about and separating Biblical Israel from the modern state of Israel is critical.
And also in Southern California, I'm sure there's a significant Arab American population and you would have access to Christians from the region who have emigrated and settled in the U.S.
invite them to come to church and speak in adult education to share their story.
In my own local church, we had a Palestinian Christian come and preach and then did adult education. And during the service, he read the scripture in Arabic. And a member in our church came to me later and said, it makes perfect sense. But I really had never thought about the scripture read in Arabic. So, you know, just a kind of a simple presence of a Christian from the Middle east amongst you might turn on a light in someone's head so that they have an aha moment and think about things a little differently and hear about a living story.
And that's something that Palestinian Christians talk About they want visitors to come. They want Christian visitors to come to the places of the Bible and see those important spiritual places, but they want people to come and visit them as well. And what they call the living stone, the people of the place, to encounter their faith, encounter their witness and their presence, and learn from them directly what they are experiencing on a daily basis. So the encounter with people is especially important as well.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: I really appreciate you bringing up Dr. Rahev, whose work is incredibly helpful on this issue. For anybody who might be interested in reading a bit of theology from a Palestinian perspective, I highly recommend that. And I also appreciate you framing that as bringing a critical reading to Scripture, because that's, I think, exactly in some ways, what we've been talking about for about the past 15 minutes is the difference between those who might know how and have been taught how to bring a critical lens to Scripture to recognize that there's a power analysis to bring to Scripture, and that for many of us who are a part of privileged groups and privileged classes as Americans, that we really don't know what it's like to read the text from below. Right. From the perspective of people who are oppressed and disempowered. And that cuts in a lot of different ways when we read scripture, because sometimes the authors themselves represent power and they're bringing power assumptions to the text. And so scholars like Dr. Rahab really, I think, model very effectively, but often very uncomfortably for us how we can read and interpret those texts in ways that are more liberating for people who are genuinely oppressed.
So thank you for that.
Now, Denise, who is on the call, has a question that I. I think actually relates to that, you know, questions around power and oppression and then maybe practically how we.
How we respond to that. And so I wonder if, Denise, you might be willing to share your question with Dr. McCarty.
[00:53:32] Speaker G: Sure. Kind of a multilayered question, I guess, like most of these things kind of are. But I did find the book very educational, looking at it from the perspective of history. That mostly is within my lifetime. I think anybody would have to have been under a rock to not know the genocide that's been going on the last couple of years.
But before that, it's a little bit of a foggy kind of situation.
But I did find it very depressing in that, you know, that this oppression has been going on back and back, and my country has been complicit and enabling of all of this, as well as my Christian brothers and sisters here in the United States.
So that part was very Floppy, I think, to come to, Like, what's going on today in our country. But what I wonder is what could justice look like?
Because there was, well, we should go back to 1967 or 1948. But even that wasn't really fair. You know, it was like the west sort of said, okay, you Palestinians can get your little part, but we've reneged on even those kinds of things.
And so what, what might justice or reparation possibly even look like in the future, let alone be possible?
[00:55:22] Speaker C: Great questions.
You know, you're talking about a history of imperialism that goes back to the end of World War I, when the British assumed the Mandate of Palestine and controlled it.
And then in 1947, the United nations voted to partition the land without input from the Palestinians and with rejection of that vote by a number of Arab countries.
You know, a through line through 1967 and even through 2024, 25, when President Trump is talking about, you know, Gaza becoming the Riviera on the Mediterranean and the US will own it and, you know, it'll be ours to develop and to create this ideal place without any input or perspective from the people who live there.
So, you know, the idea of outside intervention, outside decision making continues, you know, for over a century. And what have we learned in this time?
That's really, that's really a question in front of us even as we are somewhat relieved by a ceasefire deal that is tenuous at best. You know, and I think the intensity of the assault on Gaza is, is far less than it was before the ceasefire and everybody is grateful for that.
But, you know, there is still an Israeli presence in Gaza. 55% of Gaza is still occupied by Israel 20 years after Israel withdrew from Gaza, even though in that 20 year period it continued to control the borders. So, yeah, it is a depressing reality.
But as we read chapters by Rifat Qasis and Jonathan Qutb, I think they both imagine a world and a possibility for Palestinians that is better than what we have today.
And so, you know, that was another reason that we wanted to include Palestinian voices because Palestinians are thinking that about what justice means for them and whether we, as a church, as a Christian church, disciples of Christ.
So I just need to back up a moment and say that the disciples in 2023, and we did put this resolution in the index or the appendix of the book, the disciples moved away from prescriptive approach to understanding an outcome. The disciples and many other mainline churches had for a long time supported a two state solution.
And in 2021, the UCC moved in a different direction and in 2023 the disciples made the same move away from a prescriptive approach toward a rights based approach approach.
So instead of advocating for a two state solution or a one state solution or a federation or some other model of outcome, our two churches have focused on rights and dignity of the people.
[00:59:08] Speaker F: There.
[00:59:11] Speaker C: And are advocating for Palestinian rights.
I think similarly in this case, you know, it's derived from the voices of Palestinian Christians and our Palestinian partners. So, you know, people like Rifat Qasis at Kairos Palestine who lift up in their chapters, you know, the ideas of international law and an end to occupation and you know, justice for Palestinians as well as Jonathan Qutb and his articulation of, of an outcome beyond the two state solution. He calls it.
These are ideas that Palestinians are thinking about and we need to pay attention to what they are saying instead of us trying to figure it out for them, which is what has been the case for the last hundred plus years.
So that gets to our own imperative of decolonization, decolonization of our minds, decolonization of mission, decolonization of the church and decolonization in the world. I know that's a, that's a big, a big concept.
But it gets to centering the voices of the indigenous people so that we hear them and respect them and accompany them in their struggle for peace and justice, but also recognizing that we as U.S. citizens participate in their oppression.
So what can we do?
We can advocate against the $35 billion of military arms sales and military assistance that the US has provided Israel in these last two years and the $3.8 billion of military aid that the US gives to Israel annually.
Even without this current genocide, how do we engage in responsible practices of consumer purchases?
What companies are involved in the perpetuation of violence and occupation, and how can we make a stand with our purchase power?
Those are questions that we can ask ourselves and engage not only in the advocacy, but also in boycotts and those kinds of public witness.
[01:01:45] Speaker D: Hey, C.J. here we want to take just a quick break to tell you about something we are really excited about. We've just launched the Sanctuary Community.
It's a safe and inclusive place for progressive Christians to connect with each other, learn and grow together and work together to impact their communities. You'll find thoughtful conversations, groups and classes and helpful resources for growing in your Christian spirituality. If you've been looking for a place where you don't have to hide who you are, where Christianity is expressed in love and liberation, then this could Be Community is for you. You can join us
[email protected] we can't wait to see you there.
[01:02:35] Speaker B: So you've anticipated our, our next question, which was, you know, what are some of the calls to action here? How can we get involved? I maybe just for the sake of pointing out the obvious there, as Americans, as citizens of the United States, as largely majority culture Christians here in the United States, I think we sometimes don't fully appreciate just how committed the United States is to exercising hegemonic power on the global stage.
And so therefore, a support of Israel and Israel's sort of foothold for us in that region as a global hegemonic power means that when we ask our government to act differently, we're asking our government to reverse course in its overall posture towards the rest of the world. Right. Like this is what we do, we conquer in order to expand our, you know, our economic interests all over the globe.
And so I appreciate you bringing up boycotts and protests just as a couple of examples, because really what we're doing is resisting the very powerful historical trajectory of the United States all over the world.
And so. And that is also at the same time why I think all of this feels very overwhelming, which then I think tends to make us sort of glaze over and disengage because it all feels so big, you know, relative to what we could do as individual consumers. But, but it really is a resistance project. Right. So we're bringing our voices to our local representatives or we're bringing our voices to the way we spend our money. We're bringing our voices to, you know, the petitions that we sign or the resolutions that we endorse.
But when we do that, we are resisting very, very powerful forces that have been moving in this direction for as, for as long as the United States has existed. Really longer than that. Right.
And that's a big, big task. So then, having set all that up, I'm wondering, other than, you know, talking to our representatives in Congress, other than engaging in boycotts, other than showing up and carrying a picket sign in strategic places, which our church does, all of that.
Other than that, are there concrete things that we can do that can make some kind of difference?
[01:05:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we're actually seeing a shift in Congress.
For example, just over a month ago, there was a vote in the. The Senate on what's called a joint resolution of disapproval to deny the sales of weapons, certain weapons to Israel as a result of what it has been doing. The genocide has been carrying Out.
And in an historic vote, 27 Democratic senators voted in favor of. Of the joint resolution of disapproval. So they were disapproving of arms sales to Israel. 27. That's a majority of Democratic senators in the Senate. That is.
I mean, they were the only ones who voted for it. So it did not pass.
But that's more than a quarter of the Senate voting against selling military supplies and equipment and arms to Israel.
You know, even five years ago, that would have been impossible. So there is a shift happening, and we're seeing it.
Not all Democrats voted in that way. And the reality is that some Republicans are speaking out as well, questioning why we are supporting genocide.
And so, you know, there is a shift in the discourse. And that actually, I think, comes from the long effort of churches, civil society and so forth, who have been engaged on this issue for a long time.
And we need to keep pressing.
We need to continue to make our voices known.
What we hear from offices in Washington is that you are Christian voices who we don't hear from as much as from other Christian voices who have a different point of view.
So we just need to continue to press.
And even if it feels like we're not making headway, there is pressure, there is progress, even though it's slow and even though it did not stop this genocide. So I don't think we. I don't think we have the luxury of being discouraged by that. We need to continue to press. And I also think one of you made the comment earlier about our education in this country on racism, our education in this country on. And the country's history with regard to genocide of Native Americans and settler colonialism. Here, all of these justice struggles are connected. And so even if your issue isn't Palestine, engaging in dissent over policies and engaging for social and global justice, all of it is connected. And so if you're involved in racial justice or climate justice or justice for Palestinians and people in the Middle east, all of these struggles are connected. So we just need to continue to engage. However, wherever we find our passion and calling, there are things that local churches can do. And like you mentioned, signing petitions and making sure local, I mean, governmental, elected officials know the positions of their constituents.
There's a campaign, we also noted this in the book, the Apartheid Free Communities Campaign.
That's an opportunity for local churches to study the Apartheid Free Pledge and to engage that issue.
And this is specifically about Palestine, but the principles are general.
So, you know, the number of UCC and Disciples churches participating in the Apartheid Free Communities Campaign is growing.
And you know, I think we want to, we want to press that as well. So, you know, boycotts, consumer engagement with our purchasing power, but also governmental advocacy and education. Like this opportunity and spreading the word beyond, beyond this circle is important to help people understand the historic realities, the current realities, but also why it's important to us as Christians for our faith, why we are motivated by our faith to, to pursue justice in the world.
[01:10:50] Speaker B: All right, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I, I am cognizant that we are two minutes away from our time limit. So before we sign off, though, I just want to find out if there's anybody else who has a question that they really want to squeeze in before we wrap it up.
No.
All right. Well, we're so grateful to you, Peter, Dr. Makari, for joining us for this conversation. You have given us so much to think about and to talk about, and of course we're grateful for this book rooted in faith and justice. So those who might be watching this later, this is worth picking up and digging into. I also wanted to point out a couple of other things that some of you might find some interest in. And the first is that I popped into the Group Chat, a link to an episode of this American Life. For those of you who might be aware of this American Life as a podcast and as originally a radio show, they did an episode called Group Chat, which covers a family who are separated by the violence in Gaza. And then the only communication that they could have with each other was over an encrypted group chat over a period of a couple years. It's an amazing episode. It really gives you a peek into exactly what life is like for people who are living in Gaza. I highly recommend it, although it will make you cry. Hopefully it makes you do a little bit more than that, but I wanted to share that with you. And then secondly, I did share a link to apartheid free communities, if anybody is interested in checking that out.
And then lastly, just a reminder that this, this read of rooted in faith and justice and this conversation, I think, is really a great segue for our next book selection, which is the Moral Teachings of Jesus by David Gushee.
Highly recommend that. That's going to be our next book club selection and we'll be talking with Dr. Gushee about his book. And so again, if you have the opportunity, I highly recommend that you pick that up and we'll jump into the conversation next month with him.
All right, I think that's it. Dr. Makari, thank you again for joining us. We are really grateful for your time and please extend our gratitude to your co editors as well. And for the rest of you, thanks for joining us here tonight and we'll see you next time.
[01:13:25] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[01:13:35] Speaker A: Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of the Collective Table Podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, please consider leaving us a review. If you are interested in the broader work we do here at the Oceanside Sanctuary, please visit us online at www.oceansidesanctuary.org. we will see you next time.
