[00:00:09] Jason: Welcome, listeners, to the collective table. We are super excited to welcome you to season 10 of our podcast. I have my colleague Claire Watson here with me. Hello, Claire.
[00:00:21] Claire: Hello, everyone. Welcome to season 10. It's. It's been a minute.
[00:00:24] Jason: It has been a minute. Yes. We fumbled around in the studio this morning trying to remember how to turn all the equipment on.
[00:00:29] Claire: I know, I'm like, I was telling Jason, like, oh, I have to remember how to do my job.
[00:00:36] Jason: Well, we're excited about season 10 because we have some new guests and new voices and new ideas to explore. And just in time for an oncoming administration that seems hell bent on, like, returning the United states to the 1950s, we've decided this season to focus on centering marginalized voices in the church and exploring specifically the problem of patriarchy. And so this season we're calling the 50.5% because women like you make up more than half the population. This is my opportunity, like you said, to mansplain to you what all of this means, right?
[00:01:21] Claire: Yeah. Tell me what it means to be a woman, Jason.
[00:01:23] Jason: Women make up more than 50% of the population. 50.5%, to be as close to exact as possible. And yet still it seems like more and more there are forces at work in our culture and around the globe to push down and marginalize and oppress women's voices. So when you and I and Janelle were talking about what we could do with season 10, we landed on this idea of like the resurgence of patriarchy and how as a progressive church, a progressive Christian community, we can push back against that and center some of those voices. So this season we are engaging with women who are theologians and women who are creatives and leaders in church institutions. So a national level leader that we're excited about interviewing who is a woman, and then how they can help us to understand how as a Christian community of men and women and non binary persons, how we can press back against the oppression of patriarchy.
[00:02:30] Claire: Something that I think is important to note here too is that it's not like we're inventing a new form of Christianity that happens to include women and other types of minorities. I think that it's easy to forget that this is a deeply rooted tradition within Christianity. I was chatting with my spiritual director this morning and we were just talking about the ways that throughout the history of Christianity, it has been co opted by power. When Constantine really took Christianity and made it the religion of empire, that is when the desert mother, mothers and fathers were in existence. We don't hear about them you can go read about them, but they have not necessarily turned out to be what we would call like the domineering forms of Christianity. In doing this and talking about these things this season, specifically in thinking about the divine feminine and just more feminine forms of religion and ways to practice and be in the world as a Christian, it's part of deeply rooted traditions.
[00:03:36] Jason: And that's something that we'll hear a little bit about with our first guest because she will point that out for us. So share with us Claire, who is our first guest for this season.
[00:03:44] Claire: Yes. So the next two episodes, this episode and the next, we are going to sit with Reverend Dr. Will Gaffney. Jason and I spoke to her last week a little bit about Dr. Gaffney before we get into her interview. She is a biblical scholar, Episcopal priest and author whose work centers on feminist and womanist. We'll get into what womanism is, Biblical interpretation and making Scripture accessible to all. So she serves as the Right Reverend Sam B. Hulsey professor of Hebrew Bible at Bright Divinity School. She is the author of a woman's lectionary for the whole Church and Womanist Midrash. She is a sought after preacher, teacher and public scholar. And she really just has this profound ability to bridge the academic Jewish and Christian worlds.
[00:04:37] J: And if I could add, just for those of those who might be interested, you can find Will
[email protected] where she blogs regularly and also explores, you know, themes that are relevant to the intersection of Hebrew scholarship, which is her specialty.
[00:04:55] C: Before we dive right in, we do have a quick content warning for our listeners. I mean, we're going to get into it. But the Hebrew Bible, I mean, the Bible in general, the Christian Scriptures are pretty gnarly. There's definitely a look at the violence that humans can do to to one another. So we are going to be touching on issues like sexual assault in the next two episodes. And so if that is something that you are sensitive to, please use your discretion when listening or who you're, you know, if you have kids in the car...
[00:05:37] Dr. Gafney: I teach Hebrew Bible in its own world.
So not reading it as leading to the New Testament, but how it functioned as Scripture for its original audience. And then we can think about how Jesus understood it and see how he's using it and how that's in conversation.
[00:06:04] Claire: Can you tell us a little bit more about the perspective that you come from? A lot of our listeners may not know about womanist biblical scholarship and I would love to hear more about that.
[00:06:18] Dr. Gafney: Womanist theology, Black Women's theology, Black women's feminism in the US and some parts around the world is distinctly different from white women's theology. It can be said that in some cases, white women's theology is about getting a place at the table, having a seat with the boys, getting ordained, getting made bishop, achieving these goals. And white women's theology was from the beginning really quite racist. And black liberation theology was a male centered enterprise around the dignity of black men, but not so much the dignity of black people. So womanist theology emerged in response to the sexism in black liberation theology and the racism in white feminism. And it was crafted to take the experience of the black woman and make it a central prism for biblical interpretation or interpreting. The media, the world, the social work that we're going to do with the sort of refrain that if it's not good for a black woman, it's not good for anyone. So any theology that doesn't address the centuries of marginalization, the continuing marginalization, the public disdain for black women, the way that beauty culture has been structured such that black features are not desirable unless it's a white woman plumping up her lips. So womanist theology emerges from the lived experience of black women. And unlike feminist theology, which is one dimensional around power structures, womanist theology takes in the whole person. So it is multi layered and it's focusing on intersectionality. And let me give you the proper definition of intersectionality. It's not having multiple dimensions. Being a mother, being queer, being a woman, being poor. It's the compounded results of that. It's the type of suffering you have when you are poor, plus the type of discrimination you experience as black, plus the lived fear and reality of black mamas called black mama trauma, the fear that your child will be shot every time they leave the house, plus the terror you live in as a queer woman, plus the lack of access you have as a disabled woman. So all of those negative outcomes piled on top of each other. That's what intersectionality is. And womanism looks at any number of these things together. So it is a type of framework like feminism. It's not unique to biblical studies or theology, which is where it started religiously. But just as there's feminist literature or feminist magazines, it's a way of seeing and being in the world.
[00:10:06] Claire: I love how she describes womanism as a way of seeing and being in the world.
She talks about it as like a prism. It makes me think about the, the importance of, of who is reading and interpreting the Bible and the, the difference.
[00:10:24] Jason: That that makes okay, this makes me want to ask you what it is about this idea of a prism specifically for you, Claire, or even her phrase seeing and being. This is a very intentional inclusion of extra dimensions in the way that she is arguing womanist theology approaches scripture. So what is it about the idea of seeing and being or the idea of this prism that feels like it unlocks something for you?
[00:10:59] Claire: Well, I wish I would have gotten to ask her about what she means by prism, but when she said that, it brought to mind these, like this light. Because like you put a prism up to light and it kind of reflects it and refracts it in different places and it's like reflecting back at you. And there's this. I'm moving my arms a bunch. Jason can see. Sorry, listeners. To your point about seeing and being, it reminds me of the way that at least for me, reading scriptures, it's a conversation. It's not that I'm just opening my Bible, receiving something, a one way street, taking that and going away. It's an ongoing conversation. And I think depending on who is reading and interpreting it, it's going to mean something different to that person. They're going to draw something, they're going to hear and experience, experience differently out of that. And I think the idea of reflections and a prism is the image that makes it really come to life for me.
[00:12:01] J: Yeah, I just really appreciate that you unpacked how like the work that a prism does is expands the light.
And the result of that, the consequence of that is that we see the colors that are in the light that are otherwise hidden from us. Right. So, you know, our brains just process light in one dimension, but the prism helps us to recognize all of the dimensions that are inherent in it. Makes me think a little bit. One of the things I read that she has said in the past about describing womanist theology versus feminist theology is she said womanist theology is to feminist theology as purple is to lavender. And her point there is that womanist theology is brighter, bolder, richer. Right. More saturated. It's. It's the same thing, only it adds depth, dimension and boldness. Right. Which again is back to like the metaphor of the prism and sort of recognizing the richness of it to borrow more like she when she says both seeing and being, part of what I hear her describing there is she's opening up new ways of knowing. And we have a tendency, I think in Western culture to reduce our ways of knowing. And I think this is part of what she's getting at. When she talks about how womanist theology embraces lived experience. And then I love how she points to doing this from a black woman's perspective is critically important, because if it's good for black women, it's good for everyone, which I thought was so important for her to say, because she. In a very. In a very small, like, sentence, in a very short sentence, in a very succinct way, she, I think, explains to us why it's so important to center the voices of people who have been oppressed and marginalized. Because it's what's good for all of us.
[00:13:54] C: Yeah. I mean, I don't want to ignore. She uses the word disdain.
[00:13:58] J: Yes.
[00:13:59] Claire: She talks about society's disdain for black women and their experience. Experiences. And I think that in her studies in womanism and her talking about womanism as this. This prism, it's doing more than just expanding people's imaginations. It's. It's resisting this disdain that's leading to oppressive systems and actions that come from these narrow interpretations of Scripture.
[00:14:28] Jason: And I think it's interesting to think about for. For people like us who are in a kind of, you know, tradition of progressive Christianity, which tends to be very white and liberal, to hear her when she says that, for example, feminist theology was really quite racist. Because, of course, for, like, good progressive or liberal Christians, you know, feminist perspectives are in many ways a new awakening. Right. Like a. Like a new discovery of one of those dimensions that has been set aside. And yet here is a black womanist Hebrew scholar saying, oh, that wasn't enough. Right. It's not rich enough. It's not diverse enough. It doesn't take into account all that has been despised and oppressed and marginalized. And that, to me, is a real challenge for Christians who are attempting to be Christian in a way that is good for the world to be told. You have more to consider. You have more to be accountable for. You have more to learn.
And so I think she embodies that incredibly powerfully. I'll say. And so as much as we need you, your perspective on Scripture as a. As a woman, we need the perspective of others as well, including black women like Will Gaffney or other scholars who come from other ethnicities, other nationalities, other genders and sexualities, like each of these contains within itself, to use her language, a different way of seeing and being. Well, in her case, we might say with the text, right? Because she's talking, and we're talking to her specifically about theology. So we're starting with a kind of theological orientation towards the text that's different, but then that fleshes out in other ways of knowing and sensing and being in the world. Right. Like, am I willing to include your way of being in the world and have it teach me? Or am I not willing to hear from somebody that I have been socialized within evangelical or fundamentalist Christian circles that I've been socialized to believe is beneath me?
[00:16:52] Claire: It's a type of acceptance because you also have to accept that that is a way of being in the world, that it's not about, like you being invited in to even be a part of it. You have to accept that it is a part of the world that is not just okay to be there, but deserves to be there and is worth upholding and listening to as a. Like, as an authority, in a sense.
[00:17:16] Jason: I was just gonna say that I can't own.
[00:17:18] Claire: Yeah. That you can't own or co opt and.
[00:17:20] Jason: Yeah. And am I willing to. To learn from that, to never be centered in those perspectives? Like to be able to say to you or Janelle or other women here at Oceanside Sanctuary or other people of color or queer people, like, oh, let me tell you how you should think and be in the world, because I'm an authority and I'm accustomed to being told I'm an authority.
[00:17:53] Dr. Gafney: For your listeners who are unfamiliar with the sanctified imagination is a practice of the black church. In all kinds of black churches, conservative, progressive.
There is this cultural practice that shows up in preaching where even in a church where people say the letters of the Bible and its punctuation are fixed and unmovable and unchangeable, the preacher will be able to go beyond the text and say, oh, Samson. Samson was rolling through town on a chariot with 22s. He had the latest gold plated sundial on his wrist, right? So they will tell a story and embellish a story, but they will begin that by saying, and often the hand goes to the ear, signaling that this is coming from the Holy Spirit as much as from the preacher. In my sanctified imagination, I see Samson rolling through town in his 22s, clocking the world by his new gold plated sundial. That practice of filling in the gaps in the text unknown to many black preachers and certainly unknown to me until I got into my doctoral program. That is the same kind of practice that the rabbis do in rabbinic literature. They have different goals, but they are doing things like supplying the names of women who don't have names in the text. That was part of what drew me in. I was like, okay, rabbis I can rock with you a little bit. And so I was really interested in a academic and religious conversation where people who, this is a Christian construction, believed passionately, people who were deeply invested in their tradition, studied together, argued together, yelled together, and ultimately stayed together. So I was drawn into rabbinic studies. As I began to read the literature, I had the light bulb or lightning moment where I said that the use of the sanctified imagination in black preaching is a type of American indigenous midrash. And so my interest in midrash grew from there.
[00:20:23] Jason: What I heard you, one of the things I just heard you say is that key to this is the willingness to wrestle, the willingness to have discourse, the willingness to fight over it in a non violent way, hopefully.
And I'm reminded that you said elsewhere that you wrestle with the text and sometimes the text fights back.
And I wonder how would you encourage or exhort Christians who are breaking away from those sort of authoritarian ways of hearing scripture and reading scripture, to be liberated, to wrestle with the text even when the text fights back? Like, how would you encourage them?
[00:21:08] Dr. Gafney: Well, in Judaism, in feminist Judaism, I heard many a rabbi say that she was God wrestling. And that became a rubric for exegesis. There are so many places in the scriptures where human beings talk back to God, confront God, yell at God, and God goes along for the ride, occasionally rebukes, but remains present and engaged with that person, continuing to be their God in the story. So the scriptures demonstrate that for us and thereby make it available to us. And then there's a line that I heard before I was an Episcopalian, and it is a bit of an Episcopalian motto, and that is that we take the text too seriously to take it literally. The last piece is as I'm introducing our approach to studying the Hebrew scriptures in, in my intro classes where there'll be people from the backgrounds that you describe, is that the Scriptures, and I try not to say Bible because Bible is misleading, gives the impression that it's a singular book. The scriptures are a library. And when you go to your library, you park your child in the science section to do his report on clouds. You don't later say that the science section is untrustworthy because there's fiction in the fiction section, that it all has to be one thing. It either all has to be true or none of it is true. And so thinking about the text as a library is really thinking about the genres of scripture, some of which is historical, but some of which is mythic. So I bring those approaches together.
[00:23:21] Jason: It's too Much, Claire. There's too much information.
[00:23:26] Claire: Trying to drink from a fire hose.
[00:23:27] Jason: Exactly, exactly.
[00:23:29] Claire: Well, she talks about something that she says is from the black church experience, and she uses the term sanctified imagination, which she roots in this traditional rabbinical practice of Midrash.
[00:23:45] Jason: So this is one of the things I love about Will Gaffney and one of the reasons I'm a Will Gaffney fan. And that happened because I picked up her. The first volume of her. Her two volume work called Womanist. Midrash And I had been familiar with Midrash because Janelle and I, early in our adult Christianity, after we'd had a kind of like secondary conversion experience, one of the really influential teachers in our life was a Christian who was Jewish. He was ethnically Jewish and had been raised in Judaism and then had converted to Christianity. And at some point in his life, which I, for the record, don't think is necessary at all. But at the time we were evangelicals and we thought, like, you know, you were extra special if you were Jewish. So. But one of the things that was really great about him is that he, he taught us so much about a kind of Jewish posture towards the text, and it opens up all kinds of possibilities for interpreting it in very creative ways. And this is what Will Gaffney does by recognizing, I think brilliantly that, that the black church tradition has this approach to preaching which reads between the lines of the text and then uses that sanctified imagination is what she calls it, to essentially to imagine possibilities that apply to our lives today. And this is exactly what, if you read, you know, old Midrash from the Jewish tradition, exactly what they do. The rabbis take these texts and then they imagine what could have been going on between the lines of the story, between Adam and Eve in the garden, or between Joseph and his brothers, or, you know, between Abraham and Hagar, or, you know, like, the text doesn't say so much. Right. The text is silent on so many things. And when you're raised in a high control evangelical environment, you're taught to. You can't do that. You can't bring your imagination, your sanctified imagination. You can't bring questions to the text. You can't see it from different angles, like the prism that we talked about earlier. It's such a full and rich way of reading these stories as opposed to what I was taught, which is there's one way to read it, one way to understand it, and it's usually given to you by like the white dude.
[00:26:06] Claire: I think of it was always quoted to me like, scripture should not be added to or taken away from. A lot of people will draw upon that. And as you're talking, I am just saying, like, oh, Jason, like, so what you're saying is that it is not irreverent. In fact, it does the text more justice. It is more reverent to these scriptures to apply something like Midrash, or sanctified imagination, too.
[00:26:35] Jason: One of the things that she says that I just was so grateful for is she talks about how in the black church tradition, there is this practice of a sanctified imagination that's used by black preachers and has been used by black preachers for generations. And yet they also maintain this incredibly high value for the text itself.
[00:26:54] Claire: It's a way to honor the text.
[00:26:56] Jason: Absolutely. And I think that's something we don't get in white evangelicalism, is that if you do bring any kind of creative interpretation to the text, you feel like you're violating it. You're told that you can't do that, that that is somehow taking the text less seriously. But she points out, and this is true in Judaism, too, like, they hold the Bible, to use that singular phrase, they take the Hebrew Bible, in the case of Judaism, they take all of the Jewish and Christian scriptures and the black church tradition. They take it very seriously. They consider it holy. But that holiness doesn't prohibit them from interpreting it in these creative, sanctified ways. It allows them to do that. In fact, it's a kind of, like you said, not only a kind of honoring, but it's sort of their duty to really test and wrestle with and press the text as far as it will go in order to discover the truth.
So in that book, the first volume of Womanist Midrash, she does exactly what we're talking about, right? She writes these two volumes and demonstrates what a womanist Midrash could look like for many of these old Hebrew Bible stories. And one of my favorites is when she tackles the story of Hagar, which comes from Genesis 21. And here's what I love, what she does with this story. She says, I read Hagar's story through the prism through of the wholesale enslavement of black peoples in the Americas and elsewhere. Hagar is the mother of Harriet Tubman and the women and men who freed themselves from slavery. I see Hagar as an abused woman.
I see God's return of Hagar to her servitude and abuse as the tendency of some religious communities to side with the abuser. And at the expense of abused women and their children. The reason I love that so much is because she's demonstrating that one of the ways that a kind of midrash approach to the text can liberate us is by giving us permission to see how God being depicted as morally problematic or abusive or monstrous actually becomes a reflection of. Of the harm we experience rather than having to explain it away. She's saying, oh, yeah, this story is a problem. Hagar is abused. Hagar's son is abused. By affirming that and laying claim to that, we can lay claim to Hagar as the mother of freed slaves in America, and we can lay claim to Hagar as the mother of abused women in churches that to this day are denying their abuse and returning them to their abusers. And so then this story about God and Hagar in Genesis chapter 21 becomes a way, a kind of mirror, like we see ourselves and our worst tendencies more clearly.
And that, to me, is incredibly liberating and potentially therapeutic, rather than becoming a way of men continuing to control women by pointing to a text like Genesis chapter 21 and saying, See, you have to. You have to do what I say.
[00:30:28] Claire: Yeah, right. It's exactly that. We cannot. We cannot hear or see that side of the text without people reading it from that experience.
[00:30:39] Jason: Exactly.
[00:30:48] Dr. Gafney: Bathsheba and the notion that is still articulated.
I got a Facebook inbox where the clergyman said, Dr. Gaffney, I told my bishop that I was sure Bathsheba is raped. And he told me, absolutely not. It was impossible.
And I just wanted to hear from you, am I wrong? Of course you're not wrong. And so that story has often been presented as adultery. Adultery requires consent. I walk my students through a reading practice called close reading. It's reading phrase by phrase. You take in the words individually rather than, yeah, yeah, I know this story. You see that David sent armed men to take her. That's not how adultery works. It also says, depending on your translation, that he lay her, even though there's a little preposition. And I actually use lay with her this time, because that's how it's more widely understood. But it would be appropriate to translate as, he lay her. He did a thing to her. And the most important piece in that story is that when God gets outraged about this, God sends the prophet Nathan to show David he's wrong. God does not condemn Bathsheba. God does not send Nathan to rebuke Bathsheba. All of the story about sin and transgression is rooted in David. And for people who know the Hebrew Bible that is often very harsh with women. I put it this way. The text would not refrain on calling a woman a whore or an adulteress because there is plenty of that labeling, some of which is, in fact, not valid. But so the way that the text and God in the text and the prophet in the text treat David, but not Bathsheba, those things together make it clear that this was a sexual assault. Plus, we also know that the culture of monarchy is that when the king says, come and do this, there's no option to say no. That power differential is so overwhelming.
[00:33:31] Claire: I think what strikes me about her talking about a close reading here of a woman in the scriptures like Bathsheba, similar to Hagar, is you don't have to necessarily use a lot of. I'm using air quotes here, imagination to see what's in the text. And I think it is. It's kind of crazy to think that it is taking a certain type of imagination, a different perspective to uncover and truly see what's there. Because of the ways that. Because of who has been reading and interpreting and been the authority of these.
[00:34:09] Jason: Scriptures for so long, you could almost say that there is in certain traditions, the opposite of a sanctified imagination that we have to apply in order to not see something as obvious in the text as that David raped Bathsheba. Right. So you might call that like a.
[00:34:30] Claire: De-sanctified imagination because it is a type of imagination.
[00:34:34] Jason: Right? It is a type of imagination. You. You have to sort of blind yourself in order to take some of these terrible stories and texts and imagine that they actually might reflect something good and that you can use that to perpetuate, you know, what she calls sort of the power of monarchy or to perpetuate patriarchy or coloniality or, you know, imperial Christianity. It's the opposite of a sanctified imagination. Right. It's a profane imagination, maybe.
[00:35:08] Claire: Of course, it's no surprise that we are. We live in a world now where many of our authority figures and our government, who many, many people who are Christians, ascribe to and think they're wonderful, like, get away with things like sexual assault. And I've been thinking a lot about, like, numbness and the importance of, like, remaining sensitive to things around you. And I think it's so easy when we live in a world that is so, like, saturated with figures such as King David and in a world where a religion, Christianity, where we're so used to just explaining things away and saying, like, oh, well, you know, he did this. But think of all the great things that he did, you know, he like, wrote all these beautiful psalms and like, restored the temple and all of these.
[00:36:00] Jason: He was, "a man after God's own heart"!
[00:36:01] Claire: A man after God's own heart.
[00:36:04] Jason: This is the phrase that's used to, like, just flippantly sweep under the rug like horrors that this man committed.
[00:36:14] Claire: It's no wonder that we have become so numb to that because it is a part of our story as Christians. It's a history of the way that we've interpreted it and that has informed how we're interpreting the world around us.
[00:36:32] Jason: Yeah, it's almost like we care more about the power that these men represent than we do about the women that they brutalize. We are so enamored with whatever fantasy strong men appeal to in us as.
[00:36:53] Claire: A culture or just masculinity in general.
[00:36:56] Jason: How do we redeem this? And I mean, I suppose Wil Gaffney is pointing us in one direction by encouraging us to not be blind to those realities in the text, to not adopt a profane imagination that erases those realities, but to embrace a sanctified imagination that acknowledges them and also asks deeper questions, like, what does this say about us?
[00:37:23] Claire: Yeah, right.
[00:37:24] Jason: That's one way through this.
[00:37:27] Claire: Dr. Gafney didn't use this word, but you used the word reverence, which I really loved that you used that. I think it is doing justice to the scriptures by looking at them through these prisms. And maybe that means giving them a chance beyond your own experience too, and listening to other perspectives such as womanism and. And sitting with that, letting that be an authority. And one more thought that I had, I was thinking about the ways that it's so easy. Patriarchy. Empire has taken the ideas of Christianity throughout time, co opted them in order to gain power and stay in power. I was just thinking about the risk of people like you and me, white, well meaning, progressive people. If you've seen Wicked, the Galindas of the world, hearing what Dr. Gaffney is saying and talking about midrash and sanctified imagination, we have to hold that with care because you and I are at risk of. We could really co opt that in harmful and negative ways.
[00:38:38] Jason: Absolutely.
[00:38:39] Claire: Well, this is not the end of our conversation about Wil Gafney. I'm so excited to get more into. Jason has touched on a little bit the monstrosity of God and a little bit deeper. She talks about some archeological records of early women in the church. So please don't go too far. In two weeks, on February 17th, we will have our part two episode about vulgaphne. But thank you so much for chatting with me today to unpack womanism. Oh, thanks for having me a little bit today, Jason.
[00:39:17] Jason: Yeah, looking forward to episode two.
[00:39:19] Claire: Some questions to consider:
How have you noticed or experienced the marginalizing of women's voices and perspectives in the church?
How do you feel your body responding to Dr. Gaffney's statement that if it's not good for the black woman, it's not good for anyone?
And finally, how does this idea of interpreting scripture through a sanctified imagination or employing Jewish midrash, how does that differ from what you have been taught?
Thank you so much for listening. The Collective Table is a progressive and affirming Christian platform and a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary Church, a church community committed to inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality. We are rooted in the love, peace and justice of Christ. Check our show notes to find out more about our website and where you can follow us on social media.
And finally, we would love to hear from you. So send us an
[email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 760-722-8522 and you might be featured on a future episode. We can't wait to hear from you and we'll see.
