[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, friends. Nico here. And I'm so glad you're joining us for another edition of the Collective Table podcast and our TCT Book Club series. If you've been following along, you know this is where we gather every month to read and discuss books that help us imagine a more inclusive, inspiring and grounded expression of Christian spirituality. Each conversation takes place live on zoom with the author, and you're always invited to join in. If you'd like to be part of a future book club session, just head over to oceansidesanctuary.org bookclub to RSVP or connect with us in our online community at community.oceansidesanctuary.org there you can join the book club, connect with other members and hop into the live sessions right from our digital space. This month, our host, Jason Coker, along with other book club members, sit down with Reverend Amy Butler to talk about her new book, Holy Disruption. It's a powerful conversation about what happens when traditional models of church no longer fit the world we live in and how that disruption can actually become a sacred invitation to reimagine faith, community and mission. They explore how courage, creativity and love can help us build spiritual communities that feel alive and relevant again. So settle in and enjoy this thoughtful and inspiring conversation between the TCT Book Club and Reverend Amy Butler right here on the collective table.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: All right, well, welcome to the Oceanside Sanctuary Collective Table Book Club. We're really excited to have all of you here. Our book club selection for this month, as you all know, was Holy Disruption, co authored by Amy Butler and Dawn Darwin Weeks. And we are really excited that we have the opportunity to welcome Amy Butler, one of the co authors of this book, to our book club session. Welcome, Amy Butler. Glad to have you here.
[00:01:50] Speaker C: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: So I just by way of a bit of an introduction, it says right here on the back of your book that Amy Butler is a pastor, an author and a founder of Invested Faith. I suspect that we might hear a little bit about Invested Faith tonight, which funds Faith Rooted Social Enterprises.
She's formerly the senior minister at Riverside Church in New York City.
Quite a high profile position which she wrote about a bit in this book. And she now pastors Community Church of Honolulu and teaches across the country. And am I right, Amy, that you were just officially installed as the permanent pastor at.
[00:02:30] Speaker C: In two weeks. In two weeks. Unless I.
Unless I.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Unless you say something terrible.
[00:02:38] Speaker C: Unless I get in trouble before then, which could happen.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Well, congratulations in advance and welcome again. We appreciate you joining us here.
I'd like to read, if I could, just this excerpt from page five right near the beginning of the book. So if you'd all just bear with me. This is, I think, not only sets up the book really well, but is also really relevant for our congregation at the Oceanside Sanctuary as we're sort of dreaming about the next five years beginning in January.
And together they write this. As people of faith, we have a story of good news about the new life that is possible after death.
Once upon a time, God became a human being named Jesus, who taught us that a seed that falls to the ground and dies will bear much fruit.
Then he showed us that truth in his life teachings, death and resurrection. A seed falls to the ground and dies.
Perhaps in the heyday of our institutions, we weren't paying enough attention to these parts of the biblical witness. A story about falling to the ground and dying, after all, doesn't sound so appealing.
But what if our inability or unwillingness to embrace this truth, alongside the bustling activity of the church nursery, caused us to miss a very critical part of the teachings of Jesus?
Ignoring the necessary death that precedes resurrection has been a sin of the modern church.
And this feels a lot like the premise of your book. And so I want to start by asking a question that I think will help us with the rest of the conversation, and that is, why is this so important to you? Like, why did you and Dawn Darwin Weeks decide that this was an important book to write at this time? Like, why do you care about this subject?
[00:04:38] Speaker C: Well, as you may or may not know, I am a troublemaker by nature, so I am always sort of out there on the edges looking for what's new and what's coming. But because I'm an American Baptist, I.
I had the opportunity to pastor churches that were always in decline because I'm a.
And so when you're in that kind of desperation, you get to try new things. And so started asking a lot of questions about why we cling so hard to the institution. I think the word institution is so fundamental to this conversation.
Institutions are meant to be immovable.
Institutions are meant to stay exactly how they are. And so this is the conflict between Paul and Jesus. Jesus didn't come to found an institution. Jesus didn't spend his time in committee meetings. It was Paul who came and gave us all those rules about how women need to be quiet and all of that stuff, you know, So I. I just looked around and I'm like, all of our churches are dying. And, Jason, I think maybe you and I are probably about the same age, but the generation above us inherited churches that looked like they still pretty much had it together.
And the people who are coming after us are like, what the heck are you giving us? Like, these things are falling apart. Like. Like nobody is telling the truth about what is happening to our institutions.
So what I wanted to do was I wanted to give people like you and me, people who are theologians in place in pulpits every Sunday, words and theology to talk about the decline and the change of our institutions and how that is so different from the message of Jesus.
What I have to say is, like, is this has been a hard, hard concept for churches to get their mind around.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: Well, and for that reason, I know, or I really appreciate this image of the seed that falls to the ground and dies because it delivers difficult news in. In such an appealing form. Right? Like, yes, you have to die, but it's a seed. Something is going to come from it. Right? New life is going to come from it. And I wonder. This is related to the first question that I sent you.
I wonder how we can keep from re. Institutionalizing ourselves. Right? So I've shared a little bit about the story of this church and the process that we've been through.
And so there has been a fair amount of that sort of dying and then birthing something new and seeing something grow. And that's great, but I think it's so easy to, like, institutionalize the new forms.
And I love, like, how you.
You both wrote about being taught that certain features of our institutions are considered holy and that they need to be protected. And so I wonder, like, how you would encourage a church like ours to avoid the trap of making those mistakes again, of, like, grow, like raising up new sacred cows. Right. That. That we just won't let go of.
[00:08:39] Speaker C: I love the story of your congregation. And when I ran two test groups with this book at my church, we started with the question, like, what is church to you? And not one person said the. The pews, the stained glass windows, the. The organ.
Not. Not one person.
We get to the end of the book and people are like, we can't get rid of the pews. What are you talking about? Jesus believe. If Hughes lead, you know, and I think what it comes down to, and I'd love to hear what all of you have to. To. To say about this, is for the leaders of our communities to cultivate a culture of heightened discomfort.
We need to be in communities where we're willing to be uncomfortable a lot more than we've been taught. Churches. Church is meant to Be right?
So I used to. When I was at Riverside, I had this lady who came through, and she said, man, I always leave church depressed. Then I go home and watch Joel Osteen, and I feel way better.
And.
And I just always think to myself, like, if you don't leave church on Sunday morning feeling disquieted by the radical nature and change of the gospel, then.
Then we're getting too comfortable here.
So I wonder if there are ways to think about how discomfort is tolerated or even cultivated in your community.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Such a good question. I wonder, like, when you asked, and I'm tempted to ask everybody who's in the room right now that question, like, what's church to you? But that could get us, like, way off topic, maybe, but.
But I wonder, like, if you ask that question as you did, like, how many people shared that church for them was something that discomforted or disquieted them? Like.
Like, the pastor in me would certainly hope so. Right. Like, I would hope that people would say, oh, you know, we come to church on Sunday morning, and Jason or Janelle or CJ or Joey or whoever, like, challenges me in a way that kind of makes me mad. And I'm not sure I want to come back. You know, like, I would like to hear that answer. But the truth is, is I think we do tend to gravitate towards more comfort.
And it feels a little like, especially in. In historical moments like this where, you know, when we open up our news feed or, you know, Facebook or Instagram or whatever, that we're experiencing so much discomfort and disquiet there in a completely different way, you know? Right. Like rising authoritarianism and fascism in the US Government, the loss of rights for trans people, for LGBTQ people increasingly, the sort of turning the Justice Department sort of taking notions of reverse racism and, you know, beginning to prosecute institutions for running DEI programs. Right. Like, all of this makes us very, very uncomfortable at best and maybe even fearful at worst.
And so sometimes I have wondered.
This is not in my notes, by the way. You just asked. You just said something that made me really think, and now I'm gonna, like, confess in front of members of my congregation. But, like, sometimes.
Sometimes I honestly wonder, like, should I be offering more comfort? Like, should I be offering. Hope is the better word. But, you know, should I be paying more attention to that side of the equation in such painful times?
[00:12:53] Speaker C: I think.
I think the answer is yes and no.
So that's obviously really, really helpful and insightful.
But, you know, as our institutions age, like, I have a whole group of older adults who are like, could I just have one hour a week?
That doesn't change. Just give me one hour.
You know, and.
And so I. I hear that a lot.
The. The other thing is, you know, the world tells us we're.
Are we allowed to swear on this?
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's your. It's your job.
[00:13:39] Speaker C: So, I mean, the world. The world tells us in every possible way that we're pieces of. So, like, you know, I mean, so I try to balance it. Every single week. You know, every service, I say, you are loved, you are forgiven, be at peace.
You know, just a reminder that before we start any of these conversations, be reminded that you are loved and you are forgiven and that God wishes peace for your life. And now, all right, let's get going. We got a job to do because we're not here wasting our time. There's work to do in the world.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: That's great. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:14:33] Speaker D: Hey, C.J. here. We want to take just a quick break to tell you about something we are really excited about. We've just launched the Sanctuary Community. It's a safe and inclusive place for progressive Christians to connect with each other, learn and grow together, and work together to impact their communities. You'll find thoughtful conversations, groups and classes, and helpful resources for growing in your Christian spirituality. If you've been looking for a place where you don't have to hide who you are, where Christianity is expressed in love and liberation, then this community is for you. You can join us
[email protected] we can't wait to see you there.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Denise, I really appreciate you popping a question into the chat. I'm wondering if you would be willing to speak it to Amy.
[00:15:29] Speaker E: Well, I got the sense through the book that you had a lot of vignettes of churches that were in decline, and so they had embraced that completion of their task and passing on of the resources to basically to people who were doing creative things for Jesus. And I wondered then if you really were feeling like the traditional church itself is on the way out the door, or is it just those who can't change in a way that can do work for Jesus in today's society?
[00:16:15] Speaker C: Denise, I love that you asked that question because this sort of goes to the birth of this book, Holy Disruption. Dawn Darwin Weeks.
As you know, you read the story of how she turned her church completely around, as you all have, and she. She was always like a real skeptic of mine. Like, Amy's just like Cannibalizing the church. She's just here to get the assets and run with the, run with the money and go do the what? Go do the thing. But this is not an either or situation. It's a both and situation.
You'll note that I pastor a church. I love the church. And one of the things that came out of our conversation when we did the book here was like, I can't quit her. I want to. I've tried so many times. I have had so many reasons to quit her. And I can't quit her because I believe the transformed community can transform the world. But here's the thing.
I talked to the Office of Closing Churches at the United Church of Christ a couple of months ago, and the guy there who is just holding, holding down the fort until retirement said to me, there's a church closing every week.
There is a church closing every week in the Lutheran Synod in, on the West Coast. I was talking to a friend, Rustin, the other day. He said they have 176 churches and three of them are viable.
And by viable, they mean growing and able to support themselves without depleting their endowment.
So all I'm saying here is the emperor does not have any clothes on. Okay.
I mean, I, I think somebody needs to talk about this.
And so, so that's why it's so compelling to me. It is a trend that is happening, and it is up to us people of faith to decide how we're going to use these assets as we move into the future. And some churches are going to be able to do what your church did and what my church is hopefully doing and what Don's church did.
And 90% of churches will be five old ladies sitting in the back pew trying to decide whether or not to fix the roof one more time.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: That's just a crushing scene.
That is, I mean, because it's, it's so often true, so heartbreaking, because it.
[00:19:23] Speaker C: What it does to the five old ladies sitting in the pew is makes them feel like every moment of their life that has happened in that holy place has been invalidated.
I got married here. My babies were baptized here. I sobbed my eyes out when my life fell apart.
And part of our work as the people of God in the world is to say, oh, no, no, no, no.
God's not contained in a building.
God is out doing all kinds of stuff.
We got to go where God is going.
And that really is the idea behind Invested, invested faith. As you read in the book, I, I, I'm screaming in the wind into the wind most of the time, because people are like, lady, you're crazy. But that's nothing new.
[00:20:24] Speaker E: Well, I. I do really appreciate your acknowledging the sense of loss and grief, you know, for those five old ladies. And especially what hit me is the story of that older couple who, you know, who pulled up and, you know, and I think I. And many of us have experienced that in the past, that loss of community, you know, where everybody's just, you know, kind of withered away.
And that part of community needs to be replaced. It might look different, but it needs to be there.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Caroline, I wonder if your question might be a good follow up to Amy describing herself as screaming into the wind.
[00:21:17] Speaker F: Am I muted or can you hear me?
[00:21:20] Speaker B: We can hear you.
[00:21:25] Speaker F: Just thinking about, like, going into these headwinds of trying to scream at what are we doing and feeling like these headwinds are just coming at you and you can't push forward.
And how grateful I am for my little community of people in Oceanside that keep doing it and how much I appreciate Jason continuously making us rethink what. What we thought was true, because it is a challenge.
[00:22:03] Speaker C: I just feel.
[00:22:07] Speaker F: Like a drop in a sea and how insignificant it is. And I don't know how to keep going and fighting this battle that I believe is so much accord to our Christian faith.
And reading these things in the news and. And I don't know, it's. It's hard to keep going. And I found your book so hopeful. And the thing that keeps sticking in my mind is the people throwing the keys and the. The collection thing. We don't have those anymore.
I. I thought that was such an amazing visual of what it's like to help us let go of the past.
But it's hard to figure out how we're going to move forward because it is like going into the head.
[00:23:01] Speaker C: You're right, Caroline. And I think.
I think this, this, this goes in a gentle way to the idea of creating a community that tolerates discomfort. But Jason may have told you a little bit about my history.
I have had a. A very, very conflicted history with. With the church. I am a church change agent. I come into historic churches, and I change them. And it's dangerous, dangerous work. And I got taken down real, real hard at Riverside Church. Boy, there is a picture of me on.
Of the New York Post taking out my garbage, so you can go ahead and Google it.
I lived through so much hell with the institutional church because I thought, if anybody can show the church how to change Riverside Church, can do it right. Riverside Church can model a new way of doing things. And man, they took me down and they took me down hard.
And so did you pick yourself up.
[00:24:21] Speaker F: By the bootstraps and just keep going?
[00:24:25] Speaker C: Well, I was drunk a lot. I was drunk a lot for two years, basically.
And then I got sober, so that helped a lot.
But I can remember the moment I stepped across the, the doorway into a church again for the first time after being fired by Riverside Church.
And like, the amount of fear and.
[00:24:58] Speaker F: Don't cry.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: I'm gonna cry with hate and, and trauma that, that, you know, the institution perpetuates on us.
Thank God for our great therapists. Thank goodness for this amazing church that I, that I somehow stumbled into here and National City Christian church in Washington, D.C. that really helped to, to heal some of that hurt. But the gift that I've been given is I don't got. I don't have anything to lose.
I mean, I'm on the front page of the New York Post for buying a vibrator. It's the lamest sex scandal in the history of church work ever. You can read the whole story in my book, Beautiful and terrible Things. I mean, it was the most ridiculous.
The most ridiculous thing to live through and horrifying.
But now I feel like I got nothing to lose.
And, and in addition to that, Caroline, who do we follow?
We follow somebody who is killed.
I mean, his message was so offensive that he was executed.
I mean, what were we thinking? That being Christians was a nice little Go to church on Sunday morning and polish your shoes?
Jesus got killed.
So if you're in line to follow Jesus, then you better be ready to have it hard.
And I know that's not a nice thing to say, but it is hard.
[00:26:54] Speaker F: It is painful.
[00:26:56] Speaker C: I. I wish that someone had taught me in seminary not to confuse the church with God.
They are not the same thing.
Amen.
[00:27:14] Speaker F: Thank you for your bravery.
I can't imagine what it would be like to walk through those doors. I know for me, just walking through any other church than my own brings massive trauma and loss and grief.
So thank you for your bravery.
[00:27:32] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, most, most of the invested faith fellows who you read about and who we fund have left the church. They're either trained seminarians or people of faith who have banged on the doors of churches until they're knuckles bleed, begging them to join the work that is going on in the community and, and finally have given up and said, we're gonna. I'm gonna go find, find a coffee roaster. Myself then, and employ people who are coming back from incarceration.
So that's an interesting segue into some of the work that invested faith does and why I think that what these people are doing is church. It's church.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really beautiful, again, example of the illustration of the seed that falls to the ground and dies. I mean, I think that anytime somebody connects with what the spirit of God is doing in creative and unusual ways, that that's what's happening. There's a death and a resurrection. And I think that the trick for churches that consider themselves to be churches is to figure out how to do that.
But it is hard, especially if there's a legacy, you know, a kind of primary group that's holding on for dear life.
I appreciate you mentioning also that you landed at National City Christian Church for a couple reasons. Number one, because we're Disciples of Christ congregation. And so it just illustrates to everybody here what kind of a denomination we are that we would accept somebody who got caught buying a vibrator. So there's, there's that.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: It was an awkward interview, I do have to say. But.
[00:29:30] Speaker B: Wait, believe me, we're all, we're all grateful that the disciples exist. So, no, I don't think there's a single person on this call that is like, was raised a disciple. Right. So. So we're all like sort of transplants into it and we're grateful for it for that reason.
And then second, the. The one and only time I heard you preach was at National City Christian Church. I happened to be in D.C. for a conference and for some reason felt like going to church and ended up wandering in there. It was shortly after the pandemic.
So, you know, it was an interesting time to be walking into a congregation.
But I'm curious, you know, you, because you were sort of a long term interim at National City, if I remember right.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: It was three years. Yeah.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: And it was. And it was during the pandemic, right?
[00:30:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: It's like, I wonder what, what lessons or observations you took from pastoring such a high profile congregation in the denomination.
And a very traditional congregation by all accounts, from what I could tell. I don't know a lot about the church, but it seems to be a pretty traditional church.
What did you take away from that experience pastoring them through the pandemic that relates to these lessons and also your dreams about invested faith. Like, what did you learn there?
[00:31:05] Speaker C: I love high church. I love cathedrals. I was just in Barcelona where my phone got Stolen, which I will not allow to be the main memory of my time there. But I saw La Sagrada Familia, which was. Was just, like, life changing.
I love a beautiful cathedral. And National City Christian Church has quite a witness, both in its physical presence and in its congregation.
And really, I limped my way in the proverbial doors of that church.
They just loved me back to life.
But I also happened to be there at the time that Donald Trump was president, that January 6th happened, that, you know, like, crazy, crazy things were going on, and it was a beautiful moment of imposed desperation.
Okay, side note, if you haven't ever watched a documentary film 20ft from stardom, you should watch it. It's amazing. But there's a woman on there who's a. It's about backup sing for, like, Bruce Springsteen. I mean, it's like the people who make the music happen, right? And Judith Hill is one of those people, and she sings a song called Desperation. We all need a little desperation.
And that's how our relationship began at National City. I mean, all of us were like, what.
What do we do?
We don't know what a pandemic is, you know, and, and, and how that relationship ended was with that story of hanging Black Lives Matter banners on the front of the church on the morning of January 6th. I mean, it was such a powerful, powerful three years of my ministry, and I, I'll forever be grateful.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Well, maybe that's a good segue, too, into how a church could maybe learn to have an imagination for radicalizing our resources.
It occurs to me that, you know, we are only.
What is it now? Nine months. Nine months and a couple of days into the current administration, Donald Trump's current administration. Things are, like, every day crazier than they were the day before. And that's likely to continue. We have three years and a few months more to go in this administration, and who knows what after that. And so part of. I think what we're imagining as we're dreaming about what happens here for the next five years is how do we continue to leverage who we are and what we have for the people who are hurting the most in the community around us, for the people whose lives are really being impacted by those policies. And we're, I mean, that's, that's all around us every day.
And, and that has been a part of our. I think, I mean, maybe some others here could speak to that, but I think that's been a part of our ethos here, is to use what we have for others. But it feels like the stakes are higher than ever.
And I wonder how you might encourage congregations who are oriented towards social justice to have a bigger imagination for radicalizing their resources.
[00:34:55] Speaker C: I love that question. And it really made me think, because I don't know how it is in California, but in Hawaii, we're like, oh, we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
Nobody's gonna pay any attention to us. We, you know, we just, you know, live and let live. And, you know, we're finding here that the time for that has passed. You know, so, number one, know who you are and what your boundaries are like.
What is your policy on who comes on your campus? What are you going to do if ICE agents show up? What do you. What. What are you prepared to do for the immigrants in your community?
Those conversations need to be had right now.
Secondly, if you are in receipt of a FEMA grant or are considering any kind of FEMA security grant, you need to know that you're going to have to sign an agreement saying that you will not participate in any DEI measures whatsoever.
So, you know, if that's a major, that's, you know, that's been part of our conversation at cch. But, you know, if that's. If that's part of your financial conversation, you need to be really clear about what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do.
The third thing that I can think of is to be a gathering place that allows for uncomfortable conversations.
There's an Episcopal church in Charlotte, North Carolina, who runs a program called Our Community Listens.
And it's a program that was started by the Chapman Foundation. And it's this amazing class where people from all different parts of the community come in and listen to each other and learn to listen to each other. I mean, we can be those gathering places because our leaders right now don't want us talking to each other.
Another, easier example is one of our Invested Faith fellows whose name is Boo Milton. And you read about him in the book. He.
He's 26 years old. He's a DJ from Baton Rouge. And on Sunday afternoons, he hosts something called look at God.
It's for people under the age of 40.
And you show up and you drink tea and you tell other people how. What kind of miracles you saw going on in the world in the past week.
How beautiful is that?
You know, who's doing that kind of thing? Who's creating that kind of beauty? Who's creating the kind of community, as I said, that is transformed, that can transform the World, this is what we have to give the world.
Beyond that, we're the Rotary Club.
No offense to the Rotary Club.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: No, I'm sure the Rotary Club would be very offended by that.
Okay, that's actually, I think, a great segue into the next question.
[00:38:30] Speaker C: What ideas do you have? I mean, I want to know what your ideas are.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: I don't know, do you all have ideas?
[00:38:43] Speaker F: I, of course have something I feel like with reading books like yours. And I'm also reading a book by Terence Lester, who has started some amazing projects of reinvesting into communities that are impoverished and have, are so underserved. And then we have one locally here, Unidos, who has devoted themselves to helping the marginalized community. And by actually building on these campuses, safe places that can provide food and information and education, those are the kinds of things I think that really give me hope that there is a way that we can, and maybe it needs to be under the radar, I don't know.
But reading those stories and reading your story and what Terrence has done in his community in the South, I guess creates that imagination for what are the things that we can do if we can have the courage to go against things? And.
[00:40:03] Speaker C: I love that. And I, I think leads us, leads me toward Denise's question about invested faith. Fellows, because what I suspected.
And no, no offense to all the, no offense to all the white men on the call, but there were a whole bunch of white men who were like, lady, you're crazy. There's not anybody who's doing any work like this in the world. There's, you're never going to find a pipeline of people to fund.
And the exact opposite is true. So here's what happens. We don't, we don't accept grant applications.
We go out and we find people who meet three criteria.
First, they're rooted in faith and by faith. Our faith statement is where there is good, there is God. And the reason for that is we're not putting any limits on where God is showing up.
That's, that's just our bottom line.
Secondly, we want to see a sustainable business model. Passing the plate isn't going to hack it for much longer. You know, we need to create different ways of revenue that are funding the justice work that we want to see done in our communities. And third, we, I want to see businesses that are being created that are changing unjust systems.
Okay, so food pantries, awesome.
Clothing closets, awesome.
Coffee roaster that gives a self sustaining job and health insurance to a returning citizen.
That's the kind of business I want to fund.
And that's what Invested Faith fellows are.
We now have over 80 in 24 states. We have a long, long list. If you know of, of people we need to consider, please let us know. We're always interviewing these, like, amazing world changers who think they're all alone. You guys, they think they're all alone. They think the church doesn't care.
They think the church doesn't care. And so, Denise, with regard to your question, what we do is we say, here's $5,000. That's all we give them, 5,000 do.
And we say, go do your thing. I mean, if you want to go to Disneyland, go to Disneyland. Do, do what, whatever it is you need to do to, to make the next step in the work you're doing. We believe in what you're doing.
And I cannot tell you how many times people have said to me that $5,000 changed everything for me. I was just about to quit.
If you want to read a story of amazingness, you read in the book about Beverly Jenkins and RNR Marketplace.
I mean, she redeveloped a, a strip mall and found $20 million to do it.
And she's a pastor, like, you know, so, so I think. Do not underestimate the impact that you can have in your communities and in the lives of these people who have given up on the church.
I'd like, I'd like to just say one more thing, then I'll shut up.
One of you know, I'm a social entrepreneur myself. I started Invested Faith. I have to raise money for Invested Faith all the time. If you want to be a church who's part of Invested Faith, come on and join us, please. We, we need you and we want you to be part of what we're doing.
But along the way, I've had a. I've learned a lot of lessons. And one of the things I learned is when I started Invested Faith, I founded a church.
I founded a church.
I mean, these are people who are actively living out the message of the gospel and who desperately want community.
And the institution has pushed them away and we're bringing them back together again. It's so fun, you guys. It's so, it's so awesome.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: So you're having fun and you live in Hawaii. Okay.
[00:45:01] Speaker C: All right.
[00:45:02] Speaker B: This sounds like.
[00:45:04] Speaker C: Yeah, whatever.
I have two full time jobs and I care for my parents and there we go.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: There we go. Okay.
[00:45:14] Speaker C: Yeah. No, I'm, I grew up, I grew up here in Hawaii. I don't know if you guys know that. I'm, I'm Native Hawaiian, indigenous Hawaiian, Chinese, and my dad is a Native Hawaiian activist and community organizer. So he. My parents are conservative evangelicals. So they're like, we don't believe in women pastors. I'm like, it's been 30 years, but, you know, we're working through it.
[00:45:42] Speaker B: Oh. So, I mean, this is the, this is a really great illustration what I. Of what I was just going to comment on. I really appreciated you sharing that. I can't remember how you, how you articulated it, but your, your requirement is that they're rooted in faith. And by faith, what you mean by that is simply, wherever there is good, there is God. I love that so much. Like, if there is any one explanation for why I, you know, after leaving the church for five years and being raised in evangelicalism, why Janelle and I joined the Disciples of Christ, it's because they're non creedal. And essentially their definition of faith is wherever there is good, there is God. And that, that is such a redemptive paradigm.
And I, and I would maybe even be willing to say that the majority of the people who end up in our church and stick in our church do, because we say, hey, we're not here to tell you who God is or where the boundaries of God lie. Like, it's your faith, right? So we're just here to, to help equip you in that faith.
But it's also the reason that divides us from other people, right? Like, people are so afraid of not having really clear, really strong boundaries placed on who God is.
And so that produces an inevitable conflict. And I just find, like, that issue is both the biggest asset that we have and also in other respects, the biggest liability.
And oftentimes the things that we do in pursuit of our mission that have been really sincere efforts to build bridges with people who are different than us in many different ways is that this.
[00:47:37] Speaker C: Leads me to ask. I want to ask you guys a question. I mean, when Invested Face started, people were like, is this just for Christians?
Or like, are other people allowed to be part of it? And I was like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. And they're like, well, you're in charge of it, so come up with a theological statement. So I was like, all right, how about this? Where there is good, there is God, because we've built these institutions that keep other people out. So how about we just make it as wide as possible and say we're going to see where God is working and then we're going to go there, you know.
But my question for you is, like, that really became a problem in, in our book conversation, because even though people said at the beginning, oh, church to me is about being challenged. It's about community. It's about accountability. It's about gospel.
At the end, they were like, but we need the creeds and we need to. We need the rules and we need. We need the sinner's prayer, and we need. We need the stained glass windows. Like, if we say anything goes, like, what's going to happen?
[00:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah, so what?
[00:49:01] Speaker C: Tell me, tell me, tell me.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think, like, what? I don't know. Other people can answer this question too, but because some of you guys have been around longer than others, so I'd be curious what other people think.
But I mean, in our case, if people are, you know, the irony is, is that we say that we're radically inclusive. Anybody can come here and be included.
Like, literally anybody. Like, we talk a lot about Jesus. So if you have no interest in Jesus, you probably aren't going to be like that interested in what we're doing.
But really, there are no requirements for what you have to think about God in your head.
But that also is the problem for some folks. And that's okay. What it just means is that, you know, the people that we feel like we have the most work to do with, the people who are the most.
I mean, I'll just say it this way. The people who are the biggest threat to people of color, the people who are the biggest threat to queer people, the people who are the biggest threat to women are the very people that we would like to have, like, productive conversations with, but they won't have anything to do with us because we don't have those boundaries. And so by being radically inclusive, we automatically exclude people who can't tolerate radically inclusive spaces. And of course, that's not to say that we don't have our issues. We do. We all have our issues of judgment that we're being hopefully challenged with all the time. But it's just one of the ironies of having an inclusive space is that we just end up excluding people who can't be inclusive. So.
[00:50:43] Speaker C: Right. That's why I don't like to say radically inclusive. I like to say raising the level of discomfort. Right. That's why I keep saying that. And I have this amazing Presbyterian colleague. I forgive her for being Presbyterian, but one of my more conservative members said to her after this study, like, but, but don't. Don't you have to say the sinner's prayer and, and accept Jesus as your savior to go to heaven. And she had the most beautiful answer. She said, you know, when I think about it, I think the Bible says, for God so loved the world doesn't have anything to do with us. I mean like God just loves us and how about we just be okay with that?
And I just thought that that was such, such a beautiful way to calm some of that discomfort.
[00:51:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:51:53] Speaker D: Hello, Collective Table listeners. It's CJ again. A lot of people out there might not realize that this podcast is part of a real life faith community. The Collective Table podcast is a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary, a progressive Christian community whose mission is to foster collective expressions of inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality wherever it is needed. And as a 501c3 nonprofit organization, that mission is only possible because of the generosity of people just like you. So if you believe in what we are doing, if you benefit from this mission, please Visit
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[00:52:50] Speaker B: Who else has any thoughts or responses to Amy's question or more questions to ask? It's 7:25. We have just a few more minutes.
[00:53:04] Speaker G: I had some comments that I learned something good. And let's see, what chapter was it?
Chapter nine, A Theology of Hope.
When you explain the difference between an eschatology of destruction and an eschatology of hope.
I had never really heard about that before but made so much sense and I was definitely raised in more of that eschatology of destruction type of mindset. So it helped me understand why we can be so self focused in a, in a church group and then just how social issues can be ignored and you're just really all about trying to save people and increase your membership in that sense. And just didn't make any sense to me how we can talk about doing so many good things and then never like really turn outward except for inviting people to church, you know. And I was just really glad to understand, you know, some of why that is and those differences and, and then the, also the sin of scarcity, that kind of mindset. And the Sermon on Sunday talked about that too instead of being focused on the abundance of God. And so I just really learned what can keep us stuck or some churches stuck. And then myself personally and just really glad for that.
[00:54:54] Speaker C: Thanks for sharing that, Kelly. I, I tease my people all the time. I'm like, all right, this week you got to use the word eschatology in one sentence in a conversation with somebod.
But that's the real question. I mean, there are people in this world who think the world is going to hell in a handbasket and they don't give a about it.
And the, the divide between those two camps is getting bigger and deeper, and you've got to decide. I've got to decide, you know, is God here healing this world and healing my heart and healing our community, or has God abandoned us?
I am not willing to say that God is gone.
I just can't.
[00:55:52] Speaker G: Me neither.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: I feel like I'm a, a teacher in a classroom. Don't make me call on you if you haven't asked a question. Like, I know some of you guys, the rest of you have thoughts. So any other questions or comments, I'll.
[00:56:11] Speaker E: Ask a question of. Amy, this is Rich.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: Amy, what I've noticed is sometimes what.
[00:56:20] Speaker E: We don't talk about is sometimes the most telling thing.
When I go into a church, do you think there's any.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: Anything that we're not talking about that.
[00:56:35] Speaker E: We should talk about in church?
[00:56:47] Speaker C: Well, thanks for that, Rich.
I mean, I guess my initial thought to an answer to that would be we want to create communities where the whole of our lives can be welcomed into the life of the community.
And I'll give you an example.
At our church here, the Hawaii Conference of the United Church of Christ is not open and affirming, like, what the heck, whatever.
So individual churches have to go through the process of becoming open and affirming. And of course, you know, everybody at our church is like, we're open and affirming. Of course we're open and affirming. Our associate pastor is queer, you know, like, whatever, whatever.
And so we went through the process, and we've been going through the process this year. And as it turns out, there are some people in the church who are like, we shouldn't be talking about this in church.
We just, we just don't talk about it. We just accept everybody and love everybody and, you know, and it has been the job of me and my colleague Melissa to say no. We bring our whole selves here to this church. We bring our pain, we bring our fear, we bring our identities. We bring every part of who we are to this community, and we show up honestly and authentically because that is the only way we're going to build a community that will change the world.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Thanks for that question, Rich, and for that answer. Amy.
I didn't know that UCC in Hawaii wasn't open and affirming, but Disciples is a congregationalist denomination, and there are many churches in the Disciples that are not open and affirming. So it kind of doesn't surprise me. So.
Okay. Anybody else?
[00:59:11] Speaker G: I think I've.
Hi.
I wanted to just make two comments, I guess.
One is I loved. I wrote it in the comments that I enjoyed reading this because at this time, as so many people might agree, it's a very challenging time to be a follower of Jesus, a Christian, when you hear other Christians feeling differently than being loving and kind and inclusive.
And I want to also say that I think that in our church that we have done a really. Our pastors and teachers have done a really good job in talking about things that are challenging. So I, I love that it always kind of is heavy. But I also love that every week we do take communion and bring it back to Jesus, you know, the lover of our souls. And some of the things you were talking about earlier just really, you know, helped affirm and confirm my belief more. And that's why I love this, this type of dialogue, being able to listen to, you know, to other. Other people in their experiences.
[01:00:33] Speaker C: So.
[01:00:35] Speaker G: So I do think we do a lot of challenging ourselves at church. I think for me, it's challenging myself outside of church more.
[01:00:43] Speaker C: So anyway, with Truth and Love, thank you for that.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: Extra points for Elite to Leanne for just, you know, making us sound good.
So if anybody else wanted to do that, you'd be more than welcome to.
[01:01:00] Speaker G: Hey, she can always watch it on YouTube and then she can decide whether it was truth or not.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: Right? Because that's what Amy's like dying to do is watch other church services on, on a Sunday after, like, it's done her own.
[01:01:14] Speaker C: I don't know. I mean, if you got a good preacher, I'm. I'm down for listening. I. I'm always looking for ideas.
[01:01:21] Speaker H: I. I just wanted to say that, you know, we, we talk about having the difficult conversation and being uncomfortable, which I get if you're going to make change in all those things that require us to think about things differently. But your book gave me personally so much hope and inspiration that there are a lot of people doing really good and important work. And I was able to use it with my daughter because she was having a super down day and just was saying the world just kind of what you said, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. And I said, just know. And I didn't cite your book because she wouldn't listen if I, being the mom quoting this inspirational book I read, but I just said, just know and have a little bit of thought this week that there are people out there that are making a difference.
Just crack open your mind a little bit. And, you know, to her credit, she. I don't think she took my advice entirely, but she the next day said I was able to really come up with some things that she basically helped her shift into thinking that, yeah, there are.
There is hope, there is things that are going on. So I just wanted to share that with you because.
[01:02:35] Speaker C: Oh, Brenda, thank you for.
Thank you for saying that.
This is the reason that I do this work, because I meet these fellows and I'm like, I'm so tired of trying to make the world better.
Thanks be to God for all of you who are out there doing this work. And so, again, invitation to you guys to keep up with invested faith. Follow us on social media. You'll read stories about some of the cool people who are doing work that we support.
If you feel moved to become a supporter of invested faith, that'd be awesome. And then if you want to read about all my pain and agony, you can read my memoir called Beautiful and Terrible Things.
[01:03:29] Speaker F: Great.
[01:03:30] Speaker H: Loved your honesty. Thank you.
[01:03:31] Speaker C: It's not quite as hopeful.
[01:03:36] Speaker H: Well, there's always a blend of these things. Right? We're just going through the human experience, hopefully with divine grace and all the things.
[01:03:47] Speaker B: Dick, you have a question?
[01:03:48] Speaker I: Yeah, I just.
I've been a seeker for a long time and a rather slow learner, but, like, I started really in. In the late 80s with the course in Miracles. Have you heard of that?
[01:04:05] Speaker B: No.
[01:04:05] Speaker I: Okay.
It's just a different way. It's kind of like a mystical way, like the Christian mystics and then also the center for Action and Contemplation out of Albuquerque and Richard Rohr and Brian McArdle, a lot of their reading and.
And then even what's going on with, like, these teachers that are writing these books. Like, you probably heard of Eckhart Tolle, and. And, I mean, he's got a huge following.
It's not.
It's not.
It's somewhat Eastern, but it's also. It's not, like, decidingly Christian, for sure.
[01:04:59] Speaker C: But.
[01:05:00] Speaker I: And then another one, Rupert Spira is. You probably haven't heard of him, but he's got a huge following.
And it just seems to me that there's something missing. Like, we're not appreciating our Christian mystics, and I think missing the boat on that because they've been saying this for a long time, and I think we need more study like that because that's sort of like the change in the transformational change really.
And I think it, because it will, it's so much more positive about seeing the, this, this life experience differently. Especially when you talk about non duality and we are all one and you know, and just we got into it a little bit of pub theology, but I think we, I'd love to see more of that.
What kind of sewn into all of this stuff instead because it seems like we're just trying to, we're doing some patchwork where we need some foundational change in our theology.
[01:06:30] Speaker B: Thanks, Dick. I don't know if you have had the opportunity to have this conversation with Janelle, but you would find her to be very interested in that line of thinking and she would certainly agree that we need to hear more from the mystics in order to cultivate a sense of connection to the source of hope.
So I think that's, that's a very important stream.
[01:06:53] Speaker I: Okay.
[01:06:54] Speaker B: Okay. So I promised Amy that we would not keep her for more than an hour and 15 minutes and we're coming up on that in just a few minutes. So before we finish up, I just wanted to end maybe with one last question.
I know that you're very busy. We have heard about the church that you are pastoring and how you are coming on there in just a couple of weeks as the permanent settled pastor. Also, you're engaged with invested faith as an initiative. There's a whole lot going on there, it sounds like, but it seems to me like at heart you're very much a writer. And so I'm wondering what is on the horizon for you? Like what might you be dreaming about writing next that we can be on the lookout for? One.
[01:07:42] Speaker C: Man, that's a hard, that's, that's a low blow.
Writing a book, Beautiful and Terrible things was one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life, including giving birth to a £10 baby with no anesthesia. I mean like I, I, it took me six years of pouring out my pain in a way that tried not to bleed all over everybody. So all that to say is writing a book is, is no small thing.
Holy disruption was a dream to write because it was like theology and it was just like stuff that was coming straight out of my heart. I think what's next for me is, and don't hold me to this, but like maybe like a three volume set of sermons, sermons that I've written over the years.
And so it's been 30 years of, of my time in the pulpit and my, hands down, favorite part of my job ever in the world is preaching.
I love to preach, so that's my guess.
[01:09:04] Speaker B: It's a great answer and I will hold you to it. I'm sorry, I can't agree to not do that.
All right, well, Reverend Amy Butler.
Amy, thank you very much for joining us tonight. It's very gracious of you to give us your time.
And we're very appreciative of the work that you and Dawn Darwin Weeks did in this book. That very helpful to congregations like ours who are always trying to sort of reimagine what God might be calling us to be. So thank you very much. You all could, like, give Amy a hand over zoom. That. That would be cool.
[01:09:40] Speaker C: Well, it's, it's my joy to have been with you and thank you. Thank you for being faithful people and for having the courage to actually live your faith out.
[01:09:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for your encouragement. I think one of the things that we appreciate the most about this conversation and your book is that it's very hopeful, very encouraging about the future. And so even though all of us bring a little bit of, like, trauma and difficulty with the church, we can't help but love the church at the same time. And so we, we are compelled by it. So thank you again.
[01:10:17] Speaker C: God bless you all. Thank you.
[01:10:26] Speaker A: Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of the Collective Table podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, please consider leaving us a review. If you are interested in the broader work we do here at the Oceanside Sanctuary, please visit us online at www.oceansidesanctuary.org. we will see you next time.
