[00:00:05] Speaker A: We're oftentimes afraid of our own fear.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: These secretive acts rooted in fear, they.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: They breed violence and being vulnerable to ourselves and then being vulnerable with God and then being vulnerable with the other.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Well, welcome back to another episode, collective table podcast. We are kicking off season nine with episode one. You've got Claire here in the studio with Janelle. How's it going, Janelle?
[00:00:43] Speaker A: It's going really well. I'm excited about this being our first big episode.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: I know, me too. This is so excited. It's been kind of a long time coming.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: That's true. And I think just all the bits of getting everything into play and figuring out how we introduce this for those that don't know about TCT yet and then keep it fresh for all of our subscribers who are hopefully still following us and want to hear more.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Kind of our idea for season nine was we're hoping that we have, of course, some subscribers who have stuck around with us. And I know that there are many of you. I know that there might be some new listeners out here, and so we're actually going to be looking back on some past episodes, and we're not just going to replay them. You might hear a couple of clips here and there. And the thought behind that was, we really want our new listeners to kind of know who is the collective table, who we are, and we want our listeners who are still with us who may have heard those episodes before, to be able to get to know myself a little bit more, get to know Jason and Janelle, kind of our Oceanside sanctuary community that's merging with the collective table and also for all of us to consider. You know, these are some ideas from the past four or five years in our podcast, and what do they mean for us today? We have a very interesting topic today to kick us off and a wonderful guest that we're reflecting on. Back in January of 2023, Dana and I had the opportunity to chat with Nadia Boltz Weber, big name, I know, which was a huge guest for us to have. And we actually chatted with her about a reflection that she wrote on the January 6 insurrection. And we were chatting about this around the time of epiphany, which if you're unfamiliar with the christian liturgical calendar, that is in January, right after Christmas. It's this classic story of the wise men, and people might be wondering, what does the insurrection have to do with Epiphany?
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Well, but I think that we have been continually focusing on the insurrection as we have been looking at our candidates and where we want America to be and where we are as christians. I think it's an interesting topic and worth having, even though we're not in Epiphany at this point.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And we're getting ready to go into. I mean, we're already in a very contentious election season, so I think there might be some interesting resonances there.
[00:03:17] Speaker C: It felt like watching the insurrection unfold on epiphany. I mean, talk about insecure masculinity on display. I think that, you know, when the insurrection happened nearly two years ago on Epiphany, and we're all just, like, dumbfounded in our homes watching this happen.
I mean, for it to happen on the feast day of epiphany, just felt like it was a ball straight across the plate for anybody paying attention.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: I think we should get into our story here. If we're talking about Epiphany, we're talking about the scripture in Matthew two. King Herod has heard about this child that has been born, this child that people have been talking about. It's really getting around. And it says that when King Herod heard this, talking about the birth of this child, Jesus, he was frightened. And not only was he frightened, it says in all of Jerusalem with him. There's something about King Herod being this powerful figure, and it's probably a story, maybe a storytelling method here and all of Jerusalem with them. I don't know if the average person living in Jerusalem at that time was, like, afraid of Jesus, but it kind of reminds me of this fear mongering, this chaos that gets created around powerful figures, dare I say, political figures in our time, like, oh, you should be scared of this, because this one person is fearful of something and therefore threatened, and I possibly insecure.
[00:04:56] Speaker C: This is what fear does.
This is what fear does. Fear disguises itself in so many ways as greed, hate, isolation, addiction. The list is endless.
But in the end, fear is at the root of all of it.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: How does fear shape our actions and decisions?
[00:05:21] Speaker A: Well, it's so funny, because I think that there are so many big things that fear being that kind of guttural feeling that we have before we even know we're having a feeling that can change how our response comes through. And so there's so many big topics to talk about. But I think that one of the jokes that I often have is when I'm in the car with somebody and I am not feeling in control because I'm not in the driver's seat, and I don't know if they have seen the brakes that are a mile ahead.
But I will, you know, and I'm so frustrated with myself that I'm not trusting the person in the driver's seat. Oftentimes they are a very trustworthy driver.
But this initial reaction of distrust because I feel that I'm not in control and so much of life feels oftentimes out of control. So while that is a very benign option of looking at how I personally react to fear, I think it shapes so much of my life in when I'm feeling out of control about a bigger situation that I often react with distrust with, like, didn't you see that? Anger, frustration. Because I am just simply not in control of that very moment. And so for me, control and fear have so much in common and working together within how I may respond in anger or frustration.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, fear and anger. Because I think we also want to note that fear is not always bad.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Right?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Again, I have been talking about inside out too, way too much. But I've been thinking a lot about the core emotions. Fear is a core emotion. It's not necessarily a bad emotion. But I hear you talking about how we're reacting to fear.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: I agree. Fear or intuition or a sense of unrest or something not being well, I think is often that still small voice of the Holy Spirit. And I think that we often will feel shame around feeling that or think, well, I'm making a judgment or I shouldn't feel that. And so we try to hide it instead of noticing it. Why do I feel this way?
Why do I feel a feeling of unrest around a particular person or a situation and then really giving ourselves time to interrogate that instead of to either push our own emotions off or really give in and then have kind of a trauma reaction, a flash in the pan kind of reaction instead of really.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: That time of interrogation, befriending our emotions, befriending our fear?
I think something interesting about this, just to get a little further. When you keep reading, it says this is how Herod reacted out of his fear. It says that he secretly called for these wise men. He knew that they were going to pay homage to this Christ child. And I think that word secretly is important.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: Herod was so insecure that he had to resort to violence and coercion out of his absolute insecurity.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Well, and do you see that there is this triangulation, this politicking, right. And whether that happens on a large scale as we see on the news or it happens in our own relationships and our own families, oftentimes when we're afraid and we don't interrogate that we bring others in to try to build alliances.
And so he was very much alliance.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Building, because I think fear itself is protective. Not always a bad thing to feel, but this triangulation, this thing that he goes and does in secret, that itself that is rooted in fear, that itself is gone, gone awry. There. I think I heard something the other day. I hate that I don't have the source of it, but I heard someone say, when we are afraid, we hide a mmm.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Which would be very biological, right? If our lives are being, we have that fight or flight, and we're supposed to fly away and hide so that we preserve our life, that makes sense. But there is a type of hiding that is not appropriate for the situation.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: And if we look at where this secrecy eventually led to, in the moment, nothing happened, as we know, the wise men went another way home. That's the story of epiphany. But we know that this kind of. This through line here followed Jesus throughout his life. He was eventually killed by this empire. I think that this shows that these secretive acts rooted in fear, they breed violence.
And I think, I mean, this is an ancient story. I think that we see that still today.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, again, this is the connection, whether we have an insurrection in our government or we have one within our own families. Carl Jung talks about our shadow selves, right? So this idea that there are things that we feel, shame that we feel, and so oftentimes we don't notice them, we don't say, oh, I see that you. I'm feeling this way. Right? And so I think it's important to, again, really look at, is this something that is serving me right now? Fear? I see you over there. Is this serving me? Or am I going around and triangulating, catastrophizing?
What am I doing that is either productive towards bringing me closer to goodness, to divine mercy, or what am I doing that is taking me further apart, that is bringing violence? Which I think we can look at, really, as another word for evil.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: In our conversation with Nadia, I mean, we talk about so many things, but when we are talking specifically about Herod's fear here, the call to action that she makes is introspection. She said, if we're going to call out the fear in others, we have to look at where it is in us.
[00:12:32] Speaker C: I think it's important if we are going to do something like go, oh, man, where did the fear originate that we then see being demonstrated in the insurrection? If we're going to do that, fair game. You can't leave it at that. You have to do the next turn, which is. And where is it in us and where does it leave, you know, because if it's always going, you know, we know we can see the problem and it's out there. Nothing changes in the world, you know.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: What does it look like for us to cultivate this sense of awareness?
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it is so difficult, period, again, because I think that when we see things in ourselves that we either don't like or dare I say that we're oftentimes afraid of our own fear, that we tend to hide it, as you shared. Cover it up, pretend it's not there.
Look at only what we feel is our better self, what is our freer self? And the truth is, unless we really unwrap that and ask ourselves again, why am I feeling this way? I just had a reaction that I'm not proud of. I just triangulated.
I just yelled at somebody because there was something inside of me that I. That welled up. And perhaps it was fear. Perhaps it was shame. Perhaps it was being afraid of being rejected. So the question I think we must ask is, what is the fear? And when you have fight or flight fear, that is true, your body is in danger, you know, right away to run and get away. Right? So that that's an important fear when you decide that you're not going to take the elevator because those doors open. And perhaps, maybe I can say, as a female, there are times where I just decide, you know what? My intuition is telling me that this isn't a space to get on. Right? Then I'm going to decline that I'm gonna say, oh, sorry, I'm gonna take the stairs. Right? But then I think it's also important for. At another time for me to ask, why didn't I want to take that elevator? What was it about that person?
Perhaps it was something that reminded me of someone that I didn't feel safe from when I was a child. It had nothing to do with that person. Perhaps I have bias against a race, against a body type, against somebody who's dressed in a specific way. So I think that the question really always needs to be, if it's not in the moment, because we just need to act on our base feeling later that day, what is it that I need to see about this? And is this more about my own issues, or was this truly about a situation where I was in danger, either emotionally or physically? And I think that, for me, that definitely helps me to. I believe it's a spiritual practice to really take a look at those emotions and those fears, setting a time each day or once a week to really take a look and say, oh, I saw that. I felt this over here. Why? And how is this either serving, becoming closer to humanity and God? Or how is this pulling me further away from and feeling like God's not there for me? That humanity is horrid and there's nothing good to be there, that I'm this kind of individual on my own, protective, get my bug out bag, grab all my guns and put myself in a room isolated and alone. Right? Like those, to me are really. It just takes time to look at it and we have to practice that. It's not difficult. I should say this. It's not hard, but it is difficult.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: I think the big challenge is the vulnerability of it. I think so many times when we talk about vulnerability, it is thinking about being vulnerable to other people. But there's something just as daunting, at least for me, about being so vulnerable to yourself.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: Vulnerability to yourself is so important. And then I think vulnerability to another. So we, I think, as a society, struggle to apologize.
I think, like somehow we think that. I think, especially in this time of it's important to love ourselves and to be positive about who we are. And we feel oftentimes so beaten down by all of the messages of not being enough that when we are vulnerable with ourselves and say, ooh, you know what? I made that judgment about somebody based on a preconceived notion that was incorrect. And I treated them in ways that I should not have. First deciding, does it serve them to share that? Because sometimes it does not serve them right.
But then I think really being honest and saying, you know what? This wasn't about you. I was running late. I was afraid that I was going to not be ready, and I took that out on you. Fear comes in just so many little ways. I wish we had more words for it, really. Right. Because I think naming it is important. And then being vulnerable to ourselves and then being vulnerable with God and then being vulnerable with the other, however that.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Is, well, it also opens up kind of an invitation to that other person and you sharing with that person. This is where I'm coming from. That gives them an opportunity.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Right. Well, and I'd like to use a clarism right now because you said something to me that I think about on a regular basis, and that was that I feel. You said, I feel most close to God when I am most myself. And I think that while we have to be mindful of who we show our vulnerabilities to that working within our lives, especially in places like church, to be ourselves, to say, hey, I'm not doing so well.
I am feeling this way. I've really noticed this about myself. I could really use your grace, your prayers, your consideration. And again, I agree. I think it does allow the other to open up and say, you know what? You're not alone. And that back and forth is really where we find the gospel, and it's where we're not seeing it in our political world right now. We're not having true conversations. We're just trying to put on a show for one another. And I know I hear a lot of people in church and Christianity who say we're just all going around beating our chest saying, I'm great, I'm perfect. I'm doing wonderfully. I don't struggle with depression. I don't struggle with arguments with my spouse. I don't, you know, so I think it is a practice of vulnerability with yourself. And another, I think that was a beautiful way to put that.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: I think, too, just like a disclaimer, there's different ways to be vulnerable around different people. I think there are certain people where you can be a certain level of vulnerable. And it doesn't mean that, you know, the other people who you might have to be a little bit more guarded around because of boundaries. It doesn't mean you're not vulnerable. It means you're as real as you can be with that particular person in that particular context of relationship.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Absolutely. There are definitely people you give more or less to. And I think that we can see the opposite, where someone gives so much to somebody new that you're like, whoa, this also feels manipulative. Right. And that's out of fear as well. That's out of a fear of not being liked, a fear of trying to, again, get somebody on your side when they show an over vulnerability. There's so much based in the fear of not being accepted. And really, if we look at Herod, that was the fear of not being accepted as king. Is somebody else going to come and take my place? Are people going to reject me? Am I no longer going to stand in the place that I've been standing in? And really, that desire of needing to be so welcomed by others and to have status by others can cause us to create all kinds of havoc if we don't keep that in check.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Well, not to play the what if game, but I am going to play.
[00:22:38] Speaker A: The what if game. Okay.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: I want to imagine what would have happened. If Herod would have interrogated his fear, what would that have looked like?
[00:22:50] Speaker A: I think that Herod and the Magi were absolutely aware that this child was a savior child. I'm a Christian, so that is my faith. And so I think that. And we will talk about this in future episodes, that there would have been a laying down of power. I think that there would have been an interrogation. And if he could have seen truly that maybe there would be somebody that would have come, that would have been better, right? That would have. I mean, all kinds of things would happen. Would Jesus have been crucified? I don't know, but I do think like it. I think that oftentimes, interrogating our fear either rises our power up or we realize that we. Because it's a righteous power and we are often joining with others. I think the hash metoo movement was an excellent way that we saw women hiding from fear for so long that came together, that rose up out of those fears, of being discovered, rose up in that power and made excellent change. And so, again, like, going back to those feelings and intuition and struggles can sometimes we need to reveal. And I think also sometimes that means we lay down our power and we give to others. So I think that's the issue, right? With interrogation, there are no easy answers.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Well, and they're so different for each person.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah. What's your thought on that?
[00:24:26] Speaker B: I agree with that. You know, there could have been a laying down of power if Herod would have nothing, or if Harrod would have interrogated his fear, he would have not gone in secret. He would have been open. And maybe even if he were open, I'm thinking in the system he was in, he was likely surrounded by people who were also really interested in power. So not to be a Debbie downer here, but I wonder if maybe he would have even got talked out of it or just said, oh, you know, we need to do this anyway. And, you know, the events may have transpired differently, but it may have turned out similarly. And as we know, Jesus was not the type of Messiah King leader that people thought Jesus was gonna be. You know, he came in riding a donkey, not, you know, with the fanfare that maybe Herod may have entered his city with.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Right. Well, and would Herod have just investigated for himself if he'd known who Jesus would have been? Right. He could have said, hey, are you going to take this from me? Hey, what do you ask of me going to the source instead of, again, triangulating, I think, is such a big. Would he have hopped on a camel and taken his crew and gone for a ride to check it out for himself. One of the things that Nadia Boltz Webber really talks about in this episode is that we call them the Kingsley, but they were really magi magicians from cross cultural areas that were divinating this.
Looking at the stars and all of that feels very out there. New age for the typical Christian of today. And I really did also like that he was. I wonder if Herod was looking for, like, a magical power. So I think that the other thing I will say is, when we triangulate or we kind of go to magical sources, it's all in this desire to control our outcomes.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: I'm reading a book right now called the myth of normal, and it is. I mean, it talks about so many things. And towards the end, he gets to, you know, how are people getting more in touch with themselves? And how is that healing, you know, both mentally and physically? And he talks about people getting curious with their emotions, with what's coming up, because kind of the thesis of his book is that suppressed emotions can cause so much disease dis ease in one's life, and that can manifest dis ease in people's lives. So I've been thinking a lot about curiosity. Where are you getting curious with your fear?
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Well, my spiritual director will often just say, oh, you feel that you are struggling with anxiety. Let's not use the word struggle. When anxiety comes up, say, oh, anxiety, I see you. Oh, fear, I see you. What are you trying to teach me? What do I need to know? And I love that curiosity.
We don't have to always judge it. We don't have to put shame on it. We have to say, this is coming up inside of me for a reason.
It may be a reason that's within myself that needs to change, or a reason within the world that needs to change. But where do I need to put it? In its place? So just saying, I see you. I see you. You are part of this. You are part of my total story. And I think that is so important to being willing to dig in is to not always judge it.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: And I wonder how that would change our interactions with others. If we can have curiosity with ourselves, what would it look like for us to be curious when we come in contact with others who are like, whoa, what's going on here?
[00:28:22] Speaker A: Right. No, I totally agree with that. How can we not only be curious with our own emotions, but look at another and say, I can see that you are struggling. Right? And so, again, allow for space for the other and ourselves.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Ultimately, what we're saying is, when we get curious is I see you and isn't that what everybody wants is to be accepted and to be seen? We can say that to ourselves, but I think it's so powerful when we can say that to others.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: I see you being seen, being real with ourselves, being real with God and others is, I think, what it's all about.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: All right, well, thanks for listening today. We hope to hear from you soon. And thanks for chatting. Janelle.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: Yes, we will have another episode in a few weeks and Jason will be joining one of us for that discussion. So we hope this was helpful and we hope to see you or have you hear us.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Some questions to consider.
When was a time when you felt seen?
What messages of perfection keep you from being vulnerable with yourself and others?
And finally, how have you witnessed fear playing a negative role in the public sphere?
Thank you so much for listening. The collective table is a progressive and affirming christian platform and a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary Church, a church community committed to inclusive, inspiring and impactful christian spirituality. We are rooted in the love, peace and justice of Christ. Check our show notes to find out more about our website and where you can follow us on social media.
And finally, we would love to hear from you, so send us an
[email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 760-722-8522 and you might be featured on a future episode. We can't wait to hear from you and we'll see. See you soon.
