Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, Collective Table, it's Claire, and today we're bringing you a re release that absolutely belongs in this season of the 50.5%. This conversation is with Lavon Briggs, which aired about a year ago. But as we've been curating this season, you know, listening deeply to the stories and insights and challenges of women who are reshaping faith and culture, it became clear that this one needed to come back. So we have already spent time this season with voices like Will Gaffney and Deneen Akers and Terry Hort Owens, all who embody what it means to center the sacred stories of women when we're talking about the divine or what it means to lead with courage and conviction as women in the church.
Lavonne Briggs, she carries the same thread of radical reclaiming. She is a body and sex positive preacher poet, and she's actually the author of a book called Sensual the Art of Coming home to your Body. And this episode is really an invitation to wholeness. She invites us to consider what it means to live our faith not as something abstract or disembodied, but as something sensual, intuitive, and rooted in pleasure and not shame. She talks candidly about growing up in a certain religious context that did not allow her to trust her body's wisdom and what it meant to journey towards that and kind of reclaim this divine feminine and other things that can be sacred acts of resistance and reconnection. So at the heart of this season, called the 50.5%, is this question of what does it mean to be a woman of faith in the world and a church that has so often erased, controlled and overlooked women's stories? And one of the reasons why I wanted to re release this was because Lavon really helps us answer that question, not by looking out there, but by turning inward. She reminds us that liberation starts at home in our bodies and our breath and our ability to trust our knowing. I also just want to say that this episode holds a special place in my heart and our story as a podcast because it was hosted by our former hosts, the wonderful Dana Black and Chelsea Simon. So hi to you both, if you're listening. And with all that, it's, you know, just full of the warmth, honesty, and laughter that they always brought to the table. So whether this is your first time hearing it or you're coming back for a second listen, we hope you'll hear something new, something honest and something healing. So let's get into it.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Hi, everybody. Dana here. Welcome back to season eight of the Collective Table podcast. Today, Chelsea and I have A very engaging conversation with Lavonne Briggs. She is a body and sex positive writer, preacher, poet, educator, coach, consultant, and really so much more. We dig into her book, sensual the art of coming home to your body. If you don't have a copy of this yet, we encourage you to go out and grab one and to just spend some time with this. It is an amazing gift. We talk about all kinds of things. Sensuality, sexuality, the absence of having these conversations in the church, being created in God's image and what that looks like. It is a powerful and rich conversation. She shares with us her vulnerability and her thoughtfulness as it relates to these topics. I guarantee you're gonna learn something and you're gonna have a lot of fun while doing it. It is one of my favorite conversations. Please check out Lavonne Briggs on social media and follow her work so that you can see what's coming next. Until then, make sure you check out Sensual the art of coming home to your body. Enjoy the conversation.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: The following conversation touches upon sex and sensuality. While we believe these discussions are valuable, we recognize that they may not be suitable for all audiences, especially children. Please exercise personal discretion and consider your surroundings when tuning in. Thank you and enjoy the episode.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: All right, everybody, it's Dana and Chelsea here, and we are excited to have Lavonne Briggs on the collective table podcast.
[00:04:30] Speaker C: Hey.
[00:04:31] Speaker D: Yes. Sensual faith, the art of coming home to your body.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: We're gonna dive into this conversation because.
[00:04:38] Speaker D: We think it's gonna be a lot.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Of fun and it's gonna have a lot to offer. Um, and so let's just start off. So some folks may not have read this book just yet, because afterwards they're going to be reading this. Can you give us a brief overview of, like, what's. What's this about? What's this about?
[00:04:54] Speaker D: Absolutely. Well, for the uninitiated, my name is Lavonne Briggs. I am an Emmy award winner. I am a queen's girl, and I'm a joy finder, and I show up in the world in various healing spaces. Today, we're talking about how I show up as an author.
And Sensual faith, the art of coming home to your body, is an invitation for women, particularly black women, to live their spirituality from a place of pleasure rather than shame. Right. For many of us, particularly those of us who were raised in conservative religious traditions, we were raised to be very bifurcated from our body or to treat it as something that needed to be lorded over or repressed or suppressed. And those little girls turn into women who have These fabulous body temples. And we're like, I want to be in right relationships, relationship with you, but I need some help. And so sensual faith. Is that help?
[00:05:46] Speaker B: I love it. That was awesome. Perfect.
[00:05:48] Speaker D: Thank you. I've done this a time or two.
[00:05:52] Speaker C: I will say that it's. It is totally the help. I mean, you were talking about coming home to your body and what a gift it is through all different kinds of examples that we'll kind of get into. But I. So I listened to the book. I have a hard copy too. And you read it? You narrate the book?
[00:06:08] Speaker D: I do.
[00:06:09] Speaker C: It's so fun to listen to. I mean, you listening to your friend giving you advice. I mean, it's just accessible and funny and engaging. I'm wondering what it was like for you, the difference between writing and reading it. If there was any difference.
[00:06:25] Speaker D: Yeah. Well, in a former life I was a Baptist preacher, and before that I was an award winning poet and spoken word artist. And so language has always been very important to me. And I just want the world to know how funny and fine I am. And I'm so excited that that's happen now and people get to see it through my work. Because y'all know this. When you get labeled a particular thing, like teacher, healer, sage, wise one, you know, people want to expect the same thing from you. But I'm like, actually, I'm really funny. And so I told the pub, my publisher, I was like, I, I'm the person to do this. Like, I know there are some fabulous voice actors in your database, but when it comes to central faith, it's all me. And so it was a lot of fun. So I'm really grateful I get to be in your ears.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: It was so fun.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Was it difficult to record it? Was it harder than you thought it would be?
[00:07:14] Speaker D: You know, it was a little more intense than I thought it was going to be. We recorded the entire book. I want to say it was like we had two and a half days schedule. So it was like five hours. Five hours, three hours. And so to sit in one place and to read my book from front to back, which I had never done before. Well, actually that's not true. In the editing process I did. But to like hear it from front to back was especially interesting. And there were two very hard moments. If you read the book, I. I hold nothing back. Right. Vulnerability is my superpower. And we go there. And so there were two instances in the booth where we had to pause because I broke down and wept. And of course, weeping is something I Encourage everyone to do in the moment. But it just showed me how real and raw I was and how deeply people will connect with this because I know my story includes so many other stories.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. What's been the response to the book so far? Is there anything that surprised you?
[00:08:10] Speaker D: You know, I've been talking about women in faith and spirituality and sensuality for a few years now, and I'm always surprised by the male pastors and teachers and healers who are in my DMs talking about, thank you so much for this work. But when it was time to come down to it and really put where the rubber meets the road and publish and promote the book. Excuse and promote the book, they were nowhere to be found. And I think it's because as someone who used to pastor, I know how patriarchal and sexist many Christian spaces Spaces are and many spaces in general. And so it was important for me to use this book as like an extension of my pulpit and to go directly to black women, women of color, women, femmes, folks who support us and say, here's what your pastor, rabbi, imam, spiritual leader is probably not telling you, right, about this sacred text. And I'll close this part by saying that because I'm coming from a Christian sensibility, there were many male pastors who said, oh, yeah, we learned that in seminary. And I'm like, well, why aren't you preaching that in your to your congregations? Because knowledge is power, and power. Power scares the patriarchy.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Yes, it does.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: I love the subtitle of the book, the art of coming home to your body. And I really was thinking of the. The art of it. And so I'm just wondering if you could speak a little bit more to what does that mean to you? How do we cultivate that art form?
[00:09:44] Speaker D: Yes. Well, at my core, I am a creator and I'm an artist, and I believe we're all artists at heart. It's very much like Julia Cameron's the artist way, where she's like, we all have the power to be creat. Um, and so for me, I wanted it to be a universal law of self love, but one that you access through the means and media that feel good to you. Right. So for me, sensuality became the vehicle through which I came home to my body, viewing sensuality not as lumped in with sexuality, understanding that they inform each other, but seeing sensuality as a womanist spiritual practice, that taking deep breaths and really savoring my herbal tea and luxuriating in a bubble bath, like all of that is Spiritual and sacred, because it takes care of my body temple. And so I wanted to invite folks into a very nonjudgmental, a very creative and countercultural space. And so calling it an art, I feel like, is an open invitation to all.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: And I love the way you distinguish sensuality and. And the way samples that you give in the book that either in my experience, I've never even thought of, or it's no big deal.
[00:11:01] Speaker D: Right?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Like, whatever. I'll take a bath if I need, like.
But like, you, like, the intentionality behind it is. Is.
[00:11:10] Speaker D: It's.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: It's an invitation.
[00:11:12] Speaker D: It is. That's it. That is bold and audacious, not into some, you know, conveyor belt, some molding where you have to be a particular way to be accepted by social norms. But to say no. Are you breaking out of those boxes? Right. Lauryn Hill said, I get out of your boxes. You know, the. The labels and the repression and the categorization and the hierarchicalization of those categories. Right. We're all really beautifully gifted and. And talented, and we just need space to do that. And I'll close this part by saying that I look at sensuality as a spiritual gift, because if all of your faculties are working, you can hear, touch, taste, see, smell. Right. Like we're supposed to. Textured lives. But similarly, women have very particular spiritual gifts that are often tied to our senses. So the spiritual gift of sight or clairvoyance, the spiritual gift of hearing or clear audience, like, those are gifts that we don't have a degree in. Right. We didn't write 25 page research, or maybe some of us did, but, you know, when we were in middle school, there was no standardized test about can you trust your intuition? But that is something that we do innately. And so I really wanted to amplify that part as well.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: You.
[00:12:29] Speaker C: You mentioned this earlier. The. The audience is primarily for black women. But what did you hope? Was there anybody else you were hoping would pick up the book and. And if so, what were you hoping they would get from it? You know, at Dana's eyes, as allies, as. As women, what were you hoping we would kind of walk away with from liberation?
[00:12:49] Speaker D: Liberation is the key and the goal and. And the hope and the dream. Right. So I have a colleague who says black women have never wanted a freedom that did not include everyone. And so I am very clear as a black woman who is dedicated to serving black women and those who protect us, fund us, elect us. Right. Listen to us, that when black women are free, everybody else is going to Be free. And so if you pick up a sacred text written by a black woman and you gain something from it, well then if this young, poor, queer, trans, disabled, black girl, femme, non gender conforming person is free and safe and soft, you can bet your ass, can I cuss on this podcast that your ass is going to be free and safe and soft. And that is my ultimate dream, is for us all to live in a world held deeply by our communities, where we get to show up and we're not just seen or tolerated, but we're affirmed and celebrated. That to me is love and liberation.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's just, you know, it's so surprising. Well, no, it's not surprising to me that we live in a world that doesn't embrace that and we live in a world that, that says, you know, it's the scarcity mentality that exists out there. And yet, wow, amazing. Think about how amazing it could be if. And we're all connected.
[00:14:07] Speaker D: We are. And that is very African and indigenous wisdom. And even for folks who are white or European descended, I always tell folks like that, look at what your foremothers were doing, the women that they were calling witches, that they were burning at the stake. What did they practice? Because chances are you're going to find some really aligned innate medicine there that we all need. And so it's only the European colonial mindset that says, I need to own this. How do you own land? How do you own water? What is that? Right, I need to conquer this. I need to rename it where African and indigenous and ancient wisdom, oftentimes wisdom that's lying in our bones. I'm thinking of Women who Run with the Wolves by Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estes, which is a Bible for me. Right. That we know things that men can't know. It's simply because of that divine feminine energy that if we all tap into it, we would be more nurturing, we would be more open, we would be less conquering and gotta show my cojones and gotta take over. Like there's more than enough for everyone. And I really hope we all get that.
[00:15:23] Speaker C: That was one thing I kind of claimed from your book was. Or like, like really feel deeply is the trusting, the woman's intuition.
I don't know if I ever consciously thought about how much I ignored that before, but when I was after reading your book, I pay attention to it so much more. Like I noticed that and, and you validated that for me.
[00:15:44] Speaker D: I'm so happy for you and I'm so proud of you. Because, again, living in a westernized, colonized context where we were taught at a very young age, you need to show your work. Where is your proof? Give us evidence. I. I feel this thing, like, can you see the hair standing up on the back of my neck? Can you sense the dread in my chest? Like, that's my proof. Right. That's my evidence. And so trusting. That is countercultural. And that actually shakes the foundation of a matrix of systems of oppression that are designed to annihilate our connection to our intuition. So that is revolutionary. I'm very proud of this.
[00:16:23] Speaker C: Very freeing.
[00:16:24] Speaker D: Yes. Liberation.
That is the goal. That is the key.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: You know, you talk a lot about loving yourself. I say loving yourself. You actually, I'm going to quote this. I want to make sure I get it, because it's by Dr. Karen Baker Fletcher.
[00:16:39] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: And he says, loving yourself is the first order of business to loving God.
[00:16:45] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: I have reflected a lot on this lately because I think about the greatest Commandment in Matthew 22. You love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. You know, it's the greatest command. And the second is love your neighbor as yourself. Well, I found that in. As I have been raised in Western Christian, you know, colonized religion. You don't. They don't tell you how to love yourself.
[00:17:10] Speaker D: Nope.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: And I feel like this book starts to get you in that space, starts you to think about that. Did you like how. What's your connection to this? What are your thoughts on this? Have you ever thought about, like, that? That's the greatest commandment, and nobody ever tells us as yourself.
[00:17:24] Speaker D: You got to love yourself first.
Whoo. That sounds like another episode, child, because what really is love? And I want to put, you know, the book of Matthew in convers with all about love by bell hooks. Now, bell hooks defines love, echoing Eric Fromm, and says, love is the will to extend oneself for one's own spiritual growth or the spiritual growth of another. And when we look at the Christ figure, when we look at Jesus coming and turning over tables and centering the most marginalized among us and dying not because we were so sinful, but because he was a threat to the system and he came to liberate all of his people. Right. That is revolutionary. And so that is love.
Being dedicated to an auxiliary at your church is not love. Right. Trying to contort yourself to fit a series of some patriarch's whimsical, legalistic dogma is not love. And the thing is, if you really do love yourself, it is in Direct opposition to a lot of the church teaching that many of us were raised to believe in. And so now we are in the throes of an identity crisis. Because if this is not love, if my pastor lied to me, if the traditions my family handed down to me are false, well, then how do I identify? Do I really believe this thing? And when you start pulling at the threads and you have to unpack and deconstruct and rebuild, that's where a lot of the grief enters the picture. That's where a lot of the rage enters the picture. And, you know, we're good Christian girls, so if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything nice at all. Right?
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:10] Speaker D: That's why if I can put you at war with yourself, if your religious practice is consistently denying yourself, repressing yourself, you're too busy, you're too tired, you're too worn out to do the actual work of leaning into a liberative religious philosophy. So it's, it's all a scam. Child, loving yourself is loving God. And you cannot say that you love God if you don't love yourself.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: You're speaking some words that we needed to hear.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: No idea.
[00:19:42] Speaker D: I see.
[00:19:43] Speaker C: We may be in this grief thing that you're talking about with our eyes being open to, to institutionalize church. And what does that mean for my. Our faith and you know, and so for you, where are you in relationship with institutional church? Or what is that kind of.
Yeah. What does that look like for you.
[00:20:04] Speaker D: Now for the listeners? You can't see me rolling my eyes and doing my like one eyed shade throwing.
I do not attend church anymore. I do have a home church in Atlanta, Georgia. It's called Rise Community Church, Open Affirming Presbyterian, a little Baptist, very heavily centered on the arts, African centered and womanist. And so it's a space where I show up and I am myself. But I have learned this year you talk about, you know, grieving the institutions.
There was a conference I went to. It's like the premier conference for black clergy who are supposedly allegedly committed to social justice. And while I was there to present on this fabulous text that I've, that I've published, one married beloved male pastor sexually harassed me. Content warning, y'all. And so I was obviously distraught because this conference is one that when I was a wee little seminarian just held so much, like I lauded it so much. And so it wasn't him because I know how to handle verbal tomfoolery. Right. It was the response when I Went to the organization. They told me that I should file a police report and that they have a.
What is it? A partnership with United nations where they were going to hold a moment of silence for survivors to show their solidarity. And I was like, interesting that a survivor is coming to you, and you're trying to silence me. Why is silence your response? Right. And so I'll close this part by saying that there was a Greek sister who could see both sides, which means she chose his side, and there was a sorority sister who said, well, you know, I'm deeply tied to this organization. And so it was in that moment that I was like, you know what? Sometimes even women are leading with internalized misogyny and oppression. And I said, I'm done fighting the church, particularly the black church. I am going to sound my trumpet, and whoever likes the notes, they'll dance with me. So I don't do church anymore. I very much do Jesus and liberation, but I don't do church.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Well, we like your notes, and we're. We're dancing with you.
[00:22:16] Speaker D: Thank you. Thank you. I really bring. Bring your trumpets, right? Or your. Your cowbell, whatever. You got a hand clap, a foot stomp, a snap, a blink.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Because.
[00:22:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: You. You. You know, we weren't. We won't get into it here, but we. We had a very similar realization this year. It's been a very difficult year for us, and. Yeah. So.
[00:22:37] Speaker D: Yeah. Let's take a deep, cleansing breath. Big. Inhale in.
Exhale out.
I see y'all.
[00:22:44] Speaker C: And.
[00:22:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:46] Speaker C: Thank you. What does community look like for you?
[00:22:49] Speaker A: In.
[00:22:49] Speaker C: In, like, a space now.
[00:22:52] Speaker D: So community makes me so happy to talk about. Because this experience taught me that sisterhood is a core value of mine. And there are some people, some who are not black, women who are not black, who are not women who affirm sisterhood in my life more than woman identifying people. And so I am realizing that it's an energy and that it's a feeling. So I like to say that when I'm in community, I'm with people with whom my soul can slouch. Like, I don't have to put on. I don't have to pretend. And there are people who've been in my life for 12 years. There are people who've been in my life for 12 weeks who are just soulmates. Right. I think we need to get away from this idea that soulmates are only romantic partners. Soulmates are absolutely our girlfriends, our chosen family, our colleagues, our partners, our business partners. Right. And that just helps us to have A more expansive understanding of love which helps us to receive more love at.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: The end of the chapter. But the Bible says you introduce refasten and rebound.
[00:23:59] Speaker D: Oh, let's talk about it.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Okay, so let's talk about these. And, and what, how, how does religion currently not do these things? And what might individuals who are looking to grow in relationship with God do to refasten or rebind?
[00:24:14] Speaker D: Oh, such a good question. So what we're talking about is how I break down the term religion. So religion is from the Latin ligade, which means to fasten or to bind. And we learned in elementary school that re means to do something. So your religion should refasten you to God or rebind you to God. But what's happening is a lot of us are not g getting that old time religion that refastens or rebinds us to God. We're getting someone's patriarchal, sexist, misogynistic, misogynorist, homophobic, queerphobic, transphobic, ableist. Right.
Dogma with a little Jesus or Bible sprinkled on top and it's being presented to us as theology. And, and God grieves that. Right. So what I'm saying is whatever helps you feel closer to God as long as it is ethical and you're not harming anybody else, baby, that is your religion. So to put chapter four, but the Bible says in conversation with chapter eight, masturbation is a gift from God.
When I orgasm, I feel closer to God. Okay? Because as women, we are bearers of the clitoris and the clitoris has one job. And it ain't to birth babies.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: No.
[00:25:27] Speaker D: And it ain't to please men unless they're into pleasing their woman partner. Praise the Lord. And so honoring that even my sexuality is a sacred gift.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Oh yeah.
[00:25:37] Speaker D: That has helped me to dissolve so many blockages between me and God. And so when we're talking about women, we're talking about bodies or we're not talking. We haven't been historically religious institutions haven't been talking about bodies and sex and sexuality. So reframing that is going to be such a key moment for one's journey to self love and self acceptance. So that's something I would like to see more religious spaces doing is having intergenerational, age appropriate conversations about sex and sexuality as sacred gifts.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: Imagine if we could just, you know, and I've always thought this is so interesting is if we as Christians, we believe that God created us in God's image and yet we believe we don't talk about sex, we don't talk about orgasms. We don't talk about masturbation. And like. But yet God created these.
[00:26:29] Speaker D: Hello.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: To have an orgasm. Why would God create this?
[00:26:33] Speaker D: Orgasms are empowering, okay? You, it boosts your immunity, it boosts your oxytocin. You feel good. And once you learn about the power of the orgasm. And as women, particularly those of us who are unpartnered or not a part of the hypo Christian marriage industrial complex, we don't have to put up with men's shenanigans for the sake of sexual pleasure. We can go get a rose, a dildo, a toy, a finger.
Right. And now the page. The foundation of patriarchal tomfoolery, which is based on us staying with men who are abusive, men who are not doing their emotional healing, men who. Right. Are committed to being sexist.
I don't need you. I'm not gonna text you at 2:00 in the morning, tell you to come over. I'm not gonna stay in this, you know, couple's goal appearing marriage. If I can satisfy myself, if the only reason why I'm staying with you, so we can lie in a bit undefiled. If I learn that God is okay with me masturbating, there are a lot of men who are going to lose power over me.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: So liberation is the key in the goal.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: For Dana's birthday, I gave her a clergy shirt and a vibrator.
[00:27:45] Speaker D: Oh, come on. It's giving both hands. Okay. It's giving no separation between sacred and secular. So that's another thing. I wrote this book for black women. And because of that, I really highlighted ancient West African spirituality. Because in African cosmology, there's no separation between the sacred and the secular. You know, we grew up in these very Platonic churches where Plato was like, the body and the soul are separate.
Plato, you're wrong. Right. And so when we presuppose that my body is holy just as it is.
Oh, it softens us so much and opens us so much.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And we've had this conversation with other theologians and, and writers is it's God incarnated in a human form.
[00:28:35] Speaker D: Well, preach, preacher. Come on now.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Seriously. It's like. And yet we have just like, how can we, how can we disconnect the body and the soul? They're, they're together.
[00:28:47] Speaker D: Here's the thing. The body was connected because, oh, go out into the world and be the hands, eyes and feet of Jesus. Right. I talk about this in the first chapter. Jesus had an anus. Jesus had nipples. Right. And so why is it okay to talk about the hands, eyes, feet of Christ but not the penis of Christ? Right, because then we're gonna have to have conversations about sex and sexuality. We're not talking about the woman at the well, we're gonna have to talk about this supposed immaculate conception. And folks just don't want to do that because again, that little tiny thread that's loose, you start pulling it and the whole system comes undone.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:21] Speaker D: So let me just, let me just tuck the thread under the shoulder pad and maybe you won't see it. Let me, let me, let me, let me shame you for not wearing pantyhose and maybe you'll stop looking at the thread over here at the theology.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: But you know, I, I think I lived in that space for a long time, like tuck the thread back in. And once I had enough courage to kind of pull it and the freedom that came with it, like that you weren't this tightly wound thing anymore. Do you think that this wave is coming? Like with books like yours, you think we're a long way, like what do you.
[00:29:53] Speaker D: The wave is here.
The wave is here. Let me tell you, this is going to be a little woo woo for some of your listeners, but when you look in the Bible, we talk about, you know, the three wise men finding Jesus by looking at the North Star. I believe in the power of stars, cosmos. I believe it's all God's divine fingerprint. And so if you are an astrology girl, boy, non gender conforming person, you might be familiar with the rise of the Aquarian age. And for the uninitiated, what that means is we have been under the rain. And I use that word very intentionally because it has been violent of like this masculine energy that is very logical and linear and uses brute force and colonization. Right. To get what it wants. We see how that is not working. We see the world is on fire right now. And so what's happening is there's this rise of feminine energy, divine feminine energy that is bringing a more entrepreneurial, a more creative, a more fluid way of thinking and being. And so how does that translate to, you know, the Christian church? Well, two things. First of all, looking socially, it's proven that women leaders handle the COVID 19 pandemic better than male leaders. So something about women being too emotional to lead and you. That's false. Right. Secondly, when we look at the Bible and how gendered terms have been either assigned to be masculine or gender neutral when they were actually feminine in the original context, sex we see that there has been a systematic downplaying and repression of divine feminine energy in the Christian church. What do I mean by that? I mean the Holy Spirit. Pneuma ending. Right? Pneuma in Greek is a. Is. Is breath. It's a feminine ending. And yet we call the Holy Spirit he or it before she. Right. In Genesis 1 and 1, God created the heavens and the earth. The spirit of God was hovering over the face of the deep. That spirit that was hovering over that deep, dark water was a feminine spirit. And so we have to be mindful that women's energy has been there since the beginning of time along all the other energies. So this is the rise of that we're reclaiming. We're. We're. We're taking up space. And it's unapologetic, and I love it. Yes. Yes.
[00:32:10] Speaker C: I'm so excited for my daughter to, like, be in a world where these voice. Where voices are like. I grew up in purity culture, right, where it was, you know, like, you might be.
[00:32:22] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: All that stuff.
[00:32:23] Speaker D: And I'm just.
[00:32:24] Speaker C: And I didn't even know. I'm sure there were. But I wasn't even aware of counter voice voices. It was like this.
[00:32:29] Speaker D: No.
[00:32:30] Speaker C: And so to have to have more. More voices, diverse voices, truthful voices is so it is a deliberating thing.
[00:32:40] Speaker D: It is. And I have to give honor where honor is due. Right. So I identify as a womanist, not a feminist. And womanist is a term that was coined by Alice Walker in 1979 and in 1983 was first published. And it. There are four gorgeous, you know, definitions. But the one I always use, if you're uninitiated, is purple is to lav. Womanist is to feminist as purple is to lavender. Right. Meaning that womanism has a deeper shade. It's a richer hue of what's going on in feminism, because feminism was not created for black women. And so I think once Alice Walker gave us language, we were able to run with that. So now I'm a part of the fourth wave of womanism. So the first wave was okay. Black women should be listened to and we need, you know, attention. The second wave was holding black men accountable and patriarchy accountable. You know, the third wave was okay. We get to expand this beyond just the church. Like, how can be womanist in other waves? This fourth wave is saying, my rest is the revolution.
Ebony, Janice Moore is a hip hop womanist scholar, and she just wrote a book called all the Black Girls are Activists, where she's talking about dreaming as Resistance. And so we're seeing that we're getting further away from, like, fighting and protesting and lobbying and easing into self love and ritual and self care. And that is something that we all need.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: Wow, that is. Thank you for sharing that with. And you do talk about womanist and feminist theology and the difference in the book. And that's very, very helpful. At least it was for me. As, as a white woman. Just understanding those differences and the, the, the, the expansion of womanist theology. Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:30] Speaker D: And how it serves everyone. Everybody centers black women, but everyone gets healed when womanism is centered.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: You, you talk about, you coin a word in the book. Surf, viver. Am I saying thriver? Thriver.
[00:34:46] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: I just, I want, this is, I want you to, if you can talk about that, elaborate on that word. Because it's just, it's powerful, that whole section.
[00:34:57] Speaker D: Thank you. So in the fall of 2009, I was in the midst of, you know, my first year at Yale Divinity School, and a lot was happening and transitioning, and I started to realize that this work around women's healing really does talk a lot about being a survivor. And I was identifying as a survivor, but that term started to not feel like a good fit. You know, I was shedding it like snakeskin. And I said, I'm in seminary full time, which is a blessing. I am acclaimed spoken word artist. I'm writing, I'm studying, I'm in deep community with these amazing, brilliant humans. Like, I'm not just surviving. I'm not just meandering along. I'm thriving. My life is so full. And so I was like, you know what? I'm a surthriver, right? And I define a surthriver as one who has flourished despite facing life's harsh extenuating circumstances. So that could be anybody, child.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Yeah. It's such a great word and a great think about just. And you're right, it could be anybody. There's so many people. We don't know everybody's story.
[00:36:04] Speaker D: Everybody has one, you know, And I've realized that because 2023 was a hard ass year for me. I'm not even gonna hold you. Like, at the time of this recording, we're on the eve of December 2023. And I am so ready for this month to show me how sweet and good life can be, because I feel like I have done the work. And the thing is, we never know what people are going through. You know, I think, oh, what was me? I'm the only one. And, you know, scripture says that the enemy desires to Sift you as wheat to make you feel like you're the only one going through this. And so if I can practice and model vulnerability for people and they start to share more, we'll start to see the connections are there. You're not the only one going through what you're going through. Right. Support is on the other side of your vulnerability. Discern now. Don't just be disclosing anybody, but God has divine community to help you through this season.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Vulnerability is such an important and yet difficult thing for to, to do.
Yeah.
[00:37:07] Speaker D: Because you don't know how you're going to be received. Am I going to be judged for this? Right. But it's, it's such a beautiful gift and the risk is so great that the reward is always greater.
[00:37:17] Speaker C: It is interesting, the vulnerability in the church, though. Like, I feel like we're the least vulnerable. I felt that I could be.
[00:37:24] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:37:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Like the judgment of.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:28] Speaker C: I'm just noticing this in this, in that season. Yeah.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: But I mean, you think like the church should be the safe space and yet I found it to be not the same.
[00:37:37] Speaker D: Right. And I realized that with altar calls as a youth and young adult pastor. And I was really the assistant pastor, let's be clear. Because when the senior pastor wasn't there, I was in charge, but they called me the youth and young adult pastor. And I was aware of so many situations that needed to be held so tenderly by the church mothers. Right. By the middle aged black women who just loved on our young people. Whoever, whoever would have been a good fit to pray and to hold and to tarry and to, you know, stand in the gap, to intercede. We talk about that all the time in the church. They didn't, they weren't given the opportunity because that's not something we share publicly. So we're gathered around and we're talking about sister so and so is going to have surgery and brother so and so needs a new job. Like there were acceptable prayer requests, but the other things that were gory and hard and nitty gritty. Right. They weren't welcomed. And that infuriated me because I was like, now you're saying there are parts of our story that don't belong in the sanctuary. And I don't. I'm not with that.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: And you know, I think about that same thing. And maybe this is like the church uses words. I, I did talk a little bit about this, but like the church uses words like forgiveness and repentance and reconciliation. Reconciliation. But yet they don't really talk about what it looks like to do that hard work.
[00:38:57] Speaker D: They don't.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: I, in my experience. In my experience, I'm with you, have not created safe spaces to talk about what it looks like to really repent and to change direction.
I just. I don't know.
[00:39:09] Speaker D: So you do know.
[00:39:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I do know. Yeah.
[00:39:12] Speaker D: You said all that. All that wise stuff. Right. And so that was an invitation, right, to be big and to take up space unapologetically. And so you're right, Dana. Like, I talk about in the book, how forgiveness is inherently confrontational. And oftentimes when people. When the church. Excuse me, when the church says to forgive, it means to forget. It means to not rock the boat. It means to go deal with this by yourself. Because this is just your cross to bear. That is patriarchal at its finest. Right? And you do not have to suffer to prove that you are a good woman of faith. Christ already suffered. Christ was on the cross once. I'm not putting myself on the cross again.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Powerful, Powerful.
[00:39:52] Speaker C: Okay, I want to ask you what is. I know you've done lots of conversations like this. What is something that no one has asked you that you would be willing to, like, engage or share or bring up?
[00:40:05] Speaker D: No one's asked me, like, what my favorite sex toy is.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: All right, what's your favorite sex toy?
[00:40:13] Speaker D: So anything that is, like, rose adjacent.
I have one from this feminist organization called Bellesa.
And it's got, like, this suction part on it. It's, like, ergonomically shaped so that it fits well in your hand. But I just love that little sucker thing. Like, it just gets me there in no time. I'm like, oh, praise God.
[00:40:39] Speaker C: All right, all of our female listeners are now Googling Blessa, right?
[00:40:44] Speaker D: V E L E S S A. I did a partnership with them, and this is going someplace else, but they also have, like, feminist porn on their website. So here's the thing. And this is obviously not for the people who are like, porn is evil or bad, just like, fast forward 45 seconds. Right? But for the people who engage most, porn is very centered on the man's pleasure, and it's just, like, objectifying the woman.
Their premise is to center women's pleasure and to show more, like, slow, sensual lovemaking. Or, like, if it is considered rough, then it's like, I don't. I don't think it's rough. Rough. But that's just me talking right on the woman.
[00:41:25] Speaker B: Pleasure.
[00:41:26] Speaker D: But right, The. That's the. That's the. The golden nugget is that how many Conversations about sex. And I mean sexual intercourse. The acts of sex, sex center, women's pleasure. We grew up hearing that, you know, God said, be fruitful and multiply and save yourself for your husband. And sex is for procreation. Like, again, we have a clitoris, so that's a lie. Because that tells me pleasure is my birthright. It's important for women to know what they like so that they can share with their partners what they like as well. Yeah. So you can get what you need.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: I love that you've got your sex toys.
[00:42:01] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: To go to look for women erotica.
[00:42:04] Speaker D: That's women erotica.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: Women erotica.
[00:42:09] Speaker D: I mean, you could just read a song of songs, child. That's erotica as well.
[00:42:13] Speaker B: Right? When I was in seminary, that's what I wrote one of my papers on, Baby.
[00:42:20] Speaker D: That has nothing to do with Christ in the church. Let's be very clear. Them people was having sex.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: They were having sex.
[00:42:29] Speaker C: Okay. This is so good. I know we're kind of wrapping up a little bit, but you do. You are very vulnerable in the book. Like, you share yourself.
[00:42:39] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:42:40] Speaker C: After the book came out and people are, you know, just telling you what they thought, did you have any. It doesn't even have to be about that. But did you have any regrets or things you wish you had added or left out? Was there any changes you would make?
[00:42:52] Speaker D: You know, I don't regret anything, but there was a moment where I was like, oh, my God, all my business is on Front Street. Right. But at the end of the day, I had to release the. The judgment of self. That's ultimately. Ultimately what it was. It was the fear of being judged. The fear of being, you know, ridiculed or maybe excluded. And the fact of the matter is, is that so many people, I mean, black women, non black women, queer folks, men, have told me this book is what I needed. Then I'm like, okay. Like, the vulnerability was worth it. The risk was worth the reward. So it's. It's hard for anyone to share their truth with the world, especially the unsavory parts of ourselves. But I've found that God is willing to go anywhere. We are. We can go if we're honest.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: God's always with us, always in. In. In. In grief, in joy, in orgasms, in all of it.
[00:43:57] Speaker D: In all things. Okay.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: As we get ready to close out, I just. Is there. What. What's. What's on the horizon for you? What. What can. What can we pay attention to? What should we be looking out for?
[00:44:08] Speaker D: Yeah. So, you know, Sensual Faith has been such a beautiful platform also. And I turned 41 in August. And I don't know about y'all, but 40 has been a portal for me and I am so deeply in attune to the unfolding of this wisdom. So the Sensual Faith podcast will be pivoting to something else I have. You know, I want to be on on air, I want these cheekbones to be broadcast across screens around the world. And so I'm going to be shifting to YouTube. You know, my coaching program is going deeper with my one to one. So of course Book two. Right. Will eventually be co created with Spirit. So those are some of the fun things that you can look forward to and just find me on social media in the meantime, in between time, I.
[00:44:55] Speaker C: Was hoping you were going to say Book two. So that's good.
[00:44:58] Speaker D: Yes, yes, yes. Which is. Is very aligned with this. It's not to give too much away, but it really is just about the wisdom that comes from being a woman who is in love with the. For lack, for all intents and purposes, the aging process. But it's not just that. It's the wisdom getting process.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: So we just love your work. We thank you for putting it out there. It is a gift.
So we are just humbled and honored to have you and, and to know you. So thank you.
[00:45:31] Speaker D: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. I appreciate y'all.
[00:45:33] Speaker B: You are welcome.
[00:45:36] Speaker D: Sa.
