[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, friends, to the Collective Table podcast. I'm Jason.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: And I'm Janelle. Today we are continuing our conversation with the Reverend Dr. Terry Hord Owens, general minister and president of the Disciples of Christ, which happens to be our denomination here at the Oceanside Sanctuary.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Yeah, and I suspect not many of our folks even know that we are part of a denomination.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: I think that's true. But it's amazing to be part of the first mainline Christian denomination to elect a black woman as its head. Which is why we are talking to her. Because this season, season 10, our focus is on women who make up 50.5% of the population, but tend to be marginalized in churches and, dare I say, everywhere.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Right, Right. So what I love about this conversation is that, like Dr. Gaffney in episodes one and two, Reverend Horde Owens brings up here the intersection of both race and gender. And she shares about it in a really practical way that speaks. Speaks to the history of our traditions. And I think we would agree. Even the history of our country.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: I would agree. And this is so important, I think, because she dives into what it truly means to not just be a pro woman, but also an anti racist church in the 21st century. She even talks about how the common progressive slogan of welcoming everyone to the table can be a little bit problematic. It's really important for followers of Jesus to honestly reckon with the history and structures that keep us from overcoming racism. I'd love for y'all to listen in.
[00:01:40] Speaker C: We say we're an anti racist church. What does that mean in the 21st century? We've been training for years and yet we still have churches that, you know, there's a congregation who left the church not long after I was elected saying I was spending too much time on anti racism stuff. That's kind of who we said we are. So if you don't want to be that, then go in grace and go in peace. How can we really get to the point where people aren't just rolling their eyes every time we say anti racism as though it's some sort of befuddled thing? And it's sort of like, oh, we're post racial because we have a black president or we're post racial because we have a black gmp. Our unspoken narrative is that we're a predominantly white church and we've decided we want to let other people sit at the table, but it's still our table. Being at the table and being allowed to share power at the table are two different things. The narrative is sort of like the highway. And the stories are the cars. So no matter how many cars you let onto the highway, those cars can only go where the highway has been built. And as long as that's the narrative that's playing in our heads, as long as that's how the highway is built, we can train all day, we can let more cars onto the freeway, but it's still the freeway that was built to let certain kinds of cars go in certain sorts of spaces. So I think this notion of a narrative is what are we saying to ourselves about who we want to be? And if we don't name it, and if we're not intentionally moving toward a different picture of who we want to be, we will fall back into that same unspoken narrative. So it has to be a very intentional depiction of this new narrative, and it has to be one that we develop together. Having named the problematic, we can't just say, oh, here's the wonderful new world we want to go to. We have to do it. Being brave enough to name that future in the midst of naming the problems that we know that face us so that we're honest, we're candid and intentional about that.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Okay, so I want to pause on something that she says here, because many churches, including ours, claim to be anti racist, but there's often an uninterrogated narrative blocking those efforts. And I think she names that here. Like, what she said was, we, meaning the denomination, are a predominantly white church, and we've decided to let other people sit at our table. But it's still our table. Right? Like she's explicitly naming the unequal power at work when we invite people to sit at our table.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: And one of the biggest misconceptions about inclusion is that it's simply about just extending an invitation. But true inclusion isn't about just letting people sit sit at our table. I'm doing air quotes. It's about questioning who makes the guest list, who decides where people sit, what food is served. That's a big one, if you ask me. In other words, who owns the table? And does it need to be completely reimagined?
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Right. So, of course, this gets me thinking about gift economies and how in Western cultures, we tend to think that giving and charity are always a virtue. But what we've learned from studying ancient gift giving is that while charity can be a good thing, it can also easily be become another expression of power. Like, you know, those who are in a position to give, and especially those who can give the most, are often asserting their dominance.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Like, especially how the super rich Philanthropists give to charities or universities and get buildings named after them. It's like they're reminding us that they own the table of society. That kind of charity preserves their hierarchy. That keeps certain kinds of people in power and keeps other people marginalized.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Exactly. It reminds me of that well known quote by Lilla Watson. She's an Australian Aboriginal artist and scholar. And she said, if you've come here to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: I love that. It's like also an invitation, but it's a different kind of invitation. An invitation to a different kind of table, I guess. Like a common table, a collective table. Yep. But the flip side of any genuine invitation where power is shared is that it can be refused. Some people might not want to sit at a table where their privilege is lost.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Which brings us back to Reverend Horde Owens statement when she said that there was this congregation after she became general minister and president, this congregation who left the denomination because she was supposedly spending too much time on anti racism stuff. And I kind of honestly like love that she said, look, this is who we are. If you don't want to be a.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Part of that, go and grace.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Go and grace. Exactly. Go and grace. Meaning maybe it's time for us to part ways.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: It occurs to me that this willingness to exercise power differently can be very disruptive.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Oh yeah, for sure.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: I think it takes tremendous wisdom to know when it's time to step with certain traditions and commitments and when it's time to let go and move on.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Well, and I think like, honestly, that's one of the hardest things about leadership. And Reverend Hor Owens says some good stuff about that too. Let's listen in.
[00:07:08] Speaker C: We've all got to really go beyond this notion of even your being at the table. Meaning that you get to assume the same power that was there. Right. So you're not helpful. If all you do is take on the same oppressive mantle that others had before you. We're not fixing things just because there are faces of color that sit in some of these seats. If the same oppressive ways of being are still being implemented, if you still execute power in the same way as those who did before you, who oppress you, then we haven't solved anything. You've got to operate not as though you've now reached a state of power. And so now I'm going to inhabit that power the way it's always been done in order for me to really have this power. No, you shift the power. You shift the narrative so that it is no longer oppressive. You cannot win by adopting the very power that oppressed you. And the allure of that power does that to far too many people. We must claim the truth of the God we believe and say, you have just as much right to sit there. No one ever said it would be easy, but we've got to work on the whole church so that this narrative is an intentional one and that we're not chained by this unspoken narrative that no one wants to talk about the problems. But until we do that, we'll never move beyond this very oppressive narrative that keeps so many of us bound and keeps us from really being the community of God that I believe God intends.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: So I have to say, I know she's talking about our denomination here and beyond that, like the church at large, but really, we are still wrestling with exactly this issue in our nation right now.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say maybe more than ever before. Or at least in our lifetimes.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: Definitely in our lifetimes. I mean, we are seeing pushback at the highest levels of our government against anti racism efforts in ways I could not have imagined a few years ago. Just this week, institutions like the Smithsonian are being threatened with drastic funding cuts. And why? For educating Americans about the reality of racism and slavery.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Right. Well, because supposedly talking about it is quote, unquote divisive.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: I think what they're actually doing is sanitizing history, making it more comfortable instead of truthful.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: And I would say to protect the privileges of powerful white people.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: I mean, I just really think we have to continually grapple with the hard truths of history, no matter how uncomfortable. Including the history of our own faith traditions.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yes. I think that is so important.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Reverend Horde Owens hints at that when she says, if you still execute power in the same way as those that came before you, then you haven't really solved anything. She didn't get into the details, but it seems like she's referring to the history of our own tradition, the Disciples of Christ.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Ah, right, right, right. So I think I just assumed, like, in that portion, that she was referring to American history. But of course, you and I weren't raised in this denomination. Right. Like, we're recovering evangelicals. So maybe we have some homework to do.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: I think we do.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: So let's do it.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: I mean, right now we're recording?
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah, right now. I mean, we can just edit this.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Okay. We'll be right back, everyone.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: Okay, I'm back.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Me too.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: So what did you learn?
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Well, I hate to say it, but the Disciples have a problematic history with race going back to its founders. So the movement was started back in the early 19th century and based on this whole idea of unity. Like, as in denominations are a bad thing because they represent division. Christians of all kinds should be unified in spite of their differences in beliefs.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: So it's sort of like the anti denominational denomination?
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Well, yes, except it's not technically a denomination. Or at least back then, it was kind of this, like, grassroots movement. Like it was called the Restoration movement.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Ah, gotcha. Okay, so kind of like people today who say, I don't believe in organized religion, kind of.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: I guess. Maybe. But there definitely was a deep suspicion of how religious denominations were abusing power.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Well, that's very much like today.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: But I guess you could argue this led them to value unity above, like everything else. So much that before the Civil War, they refused to take a stand at all against slavery because the issue was so divisive. For example, one of the Disciples founders, Alexander Campbell, opposed slavery personally, but he also rejected abolitionism. In 1845, he wrote this. Abolitionists are the most mischievous and reckless men in the nation. They will destroy the Union and drench the land in blood.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Yikes. As if white people weren't already drenching the land in the blood of black Africans.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Right. Honestly, to me, it's not unity, it's complicity.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I agree.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: So. Okay, that's what I learned. What did you learn?
[00:12:29] Speaker A: Well, I may hate to say it, but similar stuff. The other founder of the Disciples was a guy named Barton Stone, who was apparently known for being, I don't know, you might say, more forward thinking or at least more outspoken than Campbell, especially about slavery. But honestly, he was still pretty cautious about it. For example, in 1847, he wrote this. Slavery is a great evil, and I long to see the day when it shall be removed from the land. But we must act with Christian patience and wisdom, lest we do more harm than good.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Ugh. It's as if liberating 4 million kidnapped, tortured, and terrorized people might somehow do more harm than good.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Right. And obviously, like, I tend to think that the harm that they're worried about here is the harm that might be done to powerful white people. Right. Like, to their wealth and their privilege.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Well, sure, but that's not what pro slavery people argued at the time. They said they were, quote, protecting black people, helping them.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's another example of oppression disguised as charity.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: Right. No wonder that even after the Civil War, segregation and Racism persisted in American churches, including in our own Disciples of Christ churches. So much so that black Christians in our denomination had to create separate congregations. So just get this quote from that time. Preston Taylor, a black Disciples leader back in the 1890s, said this. We are Disciples, yet we must have our own means of gathering. For history has shown us that we cannot always sit at the same table with our white brethren.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Wow.
Well, there it is.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: There it is.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: So 135 years later, our own black woman general minister and president is saying that there still isn't enough room at the table.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: So I gotta say, learning this history isn't exactly hopeful.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: It really isn't. But I think it can be helpful and hopeful, I guess, if we look closely enough.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: How so?
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Well, so I have to say, it bothered me, for obvious reasons, that when I initially dug into the history of the Disciples, I only found men as examples of leadership. I mean, this season is supposed to be about lifting up women, so I dug a little deeper for examples of early female leaders in our tradition.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: Okay, so what'd you find?
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Well, I found Sarah Lou Bostick.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: And who was Sara Lou Bostick?
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Well, she was this African American woman who was ordained into ministry by the Disciples of Christ back in the 1890s.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: Oh, wow. That seems really unusual.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: Well, it definitely was. She worked for 40 years in overseas missions and founded Mount Sinai Christian Church, a black congregation in Little Rock, Arkansas, which, by the way, still stands today.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Wow. This reminds me of Pastor Grace McDonald from our own church history back in the 1930s.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Yep. But this is the thing about history. If you look closely enough, there are stories of hope hidden in the midst of December despair that can inspire us to do better.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, so speaking of hope, I love this last clip from our conversation with Reverend Hord Owens. Can we play that now?
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Can't wait to hear it.
[00:15:54] Speaker C: In the black church, pastors aren't threatened to be fired because they preach about justice. I've had so many young white ministers say, terry, I want to talk about this. I want to be involved in this. But they're literally afraid they will lose their job. In my own community, in the black church, that's not the case. That's very rare. If there's a black church that doesn't want their pastor speaking for justice and working for justice. And so those things that others might find really hard or difficult to do or say are not for me. And I'm getting a lot of this. You're the right one for this time, but whatever God has ordained, you know I receive that I can only again do and be who I am. But I'm certainly not afraid to do the things that I've been doing. I was just in DC Yesterday on Ash Wednesday at a session held by Congressman Clyburn's office. It was both an Ash Wednesday service, but inviting faith leaders to speak alongside Congress people to talk about the implications of this administration's budget. Right. That threatens to cut billions of dollars out of SNAP and Medicaid and all to make tax cuts right available for people who already have far too much right for billionaires and millionaires. And then I went to an event sponsored by Repairs of the Breach. And my counterpart in the ucc, Karen Georgia Thompson, joined me and other folks from who are involved with the Poor People's campaign repairs. So there was a we. We walked from St. Mark Episcopal Church to Supreme Court, did a press conference there. And then there was a group who took some policy recommendations over to the Senate and the House of Representatives. And then I was part of a prayer vigilant noon. I was Sojourners. So I spent the day on Capitol Hill with people of faith who simply are calling the Congress to have the courage to do right by. By poor and marginalized people. And that's not something I have to summit Courage to do right. It's something I feel obligated to do because of the sacrifices that other people made so that I could be who I am and where I am and go to the schools I was able to go to live where I live so my family can have the life that it's been able to have. And that's a legacy that is important for me to continue. And so I consider this the call of my life. And I'm really honored to be able to stand and advocate for the things that I've always cared about a lot and to have a different kind of platform from which I could be heard in a different way, not just for myself, but for this whole church that I love so dearly.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Okay. So this bit about hearing from white pastors who are afraid they'll lose their jobs really jumped out at me because you and I hear this all the time from clergy colleagues and not just in the disciples, like literally in every mainline denomination that we have relationships.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah. There's so much fear in how being divided threatens our sense of identity and belonging. And especially, I mean, let's just face it, our livelihoods. Fear is about how abusive power maintains itself.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I will add, this is also why I'm so glad she shared this Story of being part of the Ash Wednesday service in D.C. and then joining with the repairs of the breach and Sojourners on Capitol Hill. Because it makes me hopeful and honestly, really proud that in spite of this troubling history we just discussed that our tradition has made progress 100%.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: It's reminiscent of the civil rights movement. During that time, Black Disciples really led the denomination to an awakening, that the need for anti racism work, ultimately launching the reconciliation ministry back in 1968.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Well, and I think it's worth noting too, that this was at the same time the Disciples were reorganizing themselves into an actual denomination. Like you said before, that it was really an informal network.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: I mean, that's a little ironic, don't you think?
[00:20:01] Speaker A: I mean, very ironic because we tend to think that the problem with making progress is that institutions hold us back. And, you know, sometimes they do. But in our case, for our denomination at least, it was this loose network of congregations who were unwilling to break ties with each other, which is to say unwilling to say go in grace, that actually kept our tradition from changing. And it even split us into racially segregated branches. On the other hand, it was our willingness to institutionalize our commitment to things like anti racism that helped us change, I would say, for the better.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I guess in the real sense, false unity was the real division. It wasn't until we were willing to be divided to say essentially, go in grace to those who weren't willing to do the work that we moved toward wholeness. I mean, like Reverend Horde Owens said, the unwillingness to deal with these issues keeps us from being the community of God that God intends. I mean, here's what I appreciate. I love that being honest about our history shows that while these problems are deeply rooted in our past, the work of those who came before us also helps us to move into a better future.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Yes, well, and when we refuse to talk about the ugly realities of our history as well as the good things, we cut ourselves off, I think, from the resources that make change possible.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Yeah, which means we're refusing to follow Jesus. If I'm going to take that leap, we have to stop pretending that silence is neutral. Jesus didn't remain silent in the face of oppression. He took action. As churches, I think we're called to do the same.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Right. So for those who say, can't we just move on? The answer is no. Like we literally can't move on until we've fully reckoned with our past. There's a religious word for that. Right. It's repentance. Like we can't be free from sin until we fully repent. And I think that's not just true for individuals, it's also true for institutions and whole communities and whole countries, like, I don't know, the United States.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Yes, and faith communities just like ours. We have to move beyond symbolic gestures. It's not enough to say we welcome everyone. We have to actively create shared and I would say safe spaces. We have to actively listen and value others perspectives. And most importantly, we have to be willing to take action when it's needed rather than allow our fear of losing privilege to make us complicit.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah, amen to that.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Well, as always, Collective Table listeners, we want to leave you with some questions to consider. So our first question is this. Where are you finding truly collective tables or spaces that share power? And how is this helping you to grow as a follower of Christ?
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Question 2 How might being honest about your own history help you to reckon with the past and move forward toward a better future for yourself, your family or your community?
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Okay guys, last question. Is this what ideas or institutions or very rarely but sometimes people do you need to be ready to say go in grace in order to be made whole and remain faithful to your deepest commitments.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Thank you again for joining us with the Collective Table podcast. Until next time.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Until next time.
[00:23:55] Speaker D: Thank you so much for listening. The Collective Table is a progressive and affirming Christian platform and a production of the Oceanside Sanctuary Church, a church community committed to inclusive, inspiring and impactful Christian spirituality. We are rooted in the love, peace and justice of Christ. Check our show notes to find out more about our website and where you can follow us on social media.
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